"Wired accuses wargaming of sexism" Topic

According to Wired, wargaming is sexist and misogynistic.

link

Do you believe them?!

They lost my interest when describing Napoleonic 'frilly line infantry'.

I don't know what they're saying.

So let's hope that those firms get to work,

… but every issue they point out is specific to the groups that two women visited. Not only do I not live in a dystopia where corporations tell me where and how to game, but my wife, daughter, and daughter(-in-law) are women who don't have these problems. So, by their logic, non-problems outnumber problems three to two (which, of course, is not a valid argument, it just underlines the futility of using anecdotal evidence; and I have about three dozen other anecdotal evidence stories left over).

According to no one that matters, Wired is racist and narcissistic. So where does that leave us?

According to the premise of the article those "boxes full of miniatures" are being sent to sexists and misogynists all over the world. Why would any business support a group like that especially one run by her husband? Why not give it up and do something else?

The implication that all wargamers are white males over 50 is simply not true. Talk about painting groups with broad brushes. Can I still use the word "broad" or has it been removed from the latest version of Newspeak?

I can't wait to see Wired's expose of macrame and art classes. (None of my continuing ed art classes have ever had more than two male students--in each case, the other one dropped out--and all instructors were female. Oh. And take a look at the materials list for an art course before announcing that miniature warfare is expensive.)

One might almost think men and women are not the same, but we all know that can't be true.

Cardinal X, "broad" is not on the actual banned list yet, but they reserve the right to denounce you later for having used it in the past. Of course, that's true of every word not already banned.

@ Robert

I am resigned to the fact that I will some day inevitably pay for my current thought crimes.

As a sexist misogynist I refuse to read an article purportedly written by women.

There was a lot that I recognized in the article….for example "I find that more minis gamers use their encyclopedic knowledge to put down those without the same level of expertise than do board and RPG gamers."

So are model railways, model rc airplanes/cars, stamp collecting, coin collecting, plastic model building, mowing lawns, digging graves, the list of sexist hobbies is endless!

I would say that "Wired" ran out of ideas and accidently ran across miniatures gaming. They noticed few females were involved in the hobby and decided the reason for it rather than performing a proper survey to determine the reason for it. I will approach articles I see in "Wired" from a different perspective from now on. And maybe the publicity from the article will bring more women into miniatures wargame. I do not see that as good or bad, just different than it has been.

Hmmm, I'm more concerned about the sexism in crocheting, needlepoint, macrame, and ballet.

Misandry IS real, and goes under-reported, or totally unreported.

[tongue in cheek humor, in case you can't tell, in the above comments].

On a more serious note, misandry is very REAL and a clear and present danger to males in the legal system, especially where child welfare and child support and visitation rights are concerned.

I'm willing to bet Wired won't report on that.

I stopped reading when the solution offered was "safe spaces."

When I worked for Electronic Arts, I ran many gaming groups that played after-hours at work.

Women participated in RPGs. They also played card games (MtG). Some played boardgames (but not board wargames).

Women were not interested in miniature wargaming. Not even just to walk by and look at.

Same people, same opportunities, different results.

The next article will be Barbie dolls are sexist and misandry because boys don't play with dolls.

That should be extra motivation for the arbiters of this hobby—Games Workshop, Fantasy Flight, Privateer Press—to start creating an ecosystem that can support curious kids like Litiorco's daughter. The dearth of women in wargaming isn't innate.

Why does Games Workshop have to do that? Wouldn't it be better if women that want to play war games designed rules and figures for themselves rather than rely on corporate males to do it for them?

You probably never heard of Madam C.J. Walker (born Sarah Breedlove; December 23, 1867 – May 25, 1919). She was an Afro-American woman who had a hard time finding hair care products. Rather than complaining, protesting, and getting an army of race-based Community Organizers demanding other companies make products for her she developed her own line of hair care products and became the richest Afro-American businesswoman in America.

Wolfhag

"Women were not interested in miniature wargaming. Not even just to walk by and look at."

Bill, perhaps not 'miniature wargaming' per se, but
if you can develop and present an attractive CONFLICT
game based in an issue or issues in which women had
an interest and were heavily involved in an outcome
which changed society in some way, they will take
part heartily.

We developed 'Temperance Tantrum' specifically for
women as a convention game and every time we have
presented it have filled it.

Similarly, test games of the Suffragette game
'Sufferin' Gents' have been well received.

Each has role-play elements and uses our own home
rules.

The implication that all wargamers are white males over 50 is simply not true.

Well, that certainly describes my group.
This is certainly a First World Problem, but it doesn't bother me.

We developed 'Temperance Tantrum' specifically for
women as a convention game and every time we have
presented it have filled it.

Similarly, test games of the Suffragette game
'Sufferin' Gents' have been well received.

So women will only play 'women's history' games?

Seems a bit sexist.

Let's submit a fake article to Wired about a fake company that only produces non-sexist, non-binary miniatures, with rules that mean nobody wins or loses.

"Okay, my unit of tofu sculptors will advance— I mean, non-laterally progress— to the local vegan co-op dispensary and submit their daily ration chips for conflict-free, naturally sourced, carbon-neutral recycled paper cups to be filled with organic coffee sufficiently burnt so as to not have any outstanding taste superior to other coffees, mixed with organically grown soy milk, stirred to make little peace symbols and hearts on the surface as they sip."
"Hearts are offensive! They are Western-cultural affectation and misappropriation of the feelings of affection which are universal among all cultures, denying cross-representation of cultural iconography of other symbols! Your unit is CANCELLED!"

What is Wired….?

DBDD

Wired was to the 90s what Omni was to the 80s. Sort of.

Never heard of either. Sadly we live in the age of …isms. Everyone is a victim and no self responsibility.

Never heard of WIRED. Not care care what they say. Piss off.

Maybe they should take off the wires from the electricity.

*yawn*
Sorry… who?

Imagine the vaporing if they'd seen the scantily clad minis out there. Wait, somebody tell them! I really want to see their reaction to those… LOL ;-)

Of course this hobby is sexist and racist. It is full of cis-hetero-white non- birthing people. They are by definition the patriarchy and are oppressing everyone else. We can't find true self actualization until they are suppressed and the hobby is destroyed. Then it can be rebuilt with repressive tolerance and a true equitable society will emerge. Lead will transformed to gold. Thesis and antithesis will be synthesized. The prols will own the means of production. Racism will be destroyed! The state will wither and true communism will arise!

Sorry, been studying Hegel,Marx,Gramsci, and Marcuse. It does make for good speech's for commissars when playing modern games.

Joe Collins

When I moved to California, I visited a local group's open gaming night, and left after 30 minutes of being studiously ignored. Bad social skills are gender neutral. I love playing at my local store that will not put up boorish behavior, or exclusion in any open games. The best stores have found that more money is made if all people are welcomed.

We developed 'Temperance Tantrum' specifically for
women as a convention game and every time we have
presented it have filled it.
Similarly, test games of the Suffragette game
'Sufferin' Gents' have been well received.

I showed this to my wife who consider it pandering to women. If not outright sexist. "You mean women can't play AOE or JR2 and have to have their own special games?" Like when they use to have the "women's section" in newspapers.

I think women, as a whole, are just not that interested in historical wargaming. They like something with a story line and back story. That is why they prefer card games, RPG, D&D and COS play.

It is not necessarily a lack of interest in history. There are, have been many excellent women military historians. My Wife has a history degree as do I.

I knew a female co-worker who was immediately put off by the use of the word "war' as in wargames. The term "Historical Miniature Gaming" seems to peak their interest, at least that has been my experience.

I have been in the historical gaming hobby since the early 70s and I have only known of two women who played historical wargames. I have seen a lot of women play Magic, RPG, D&D, train games, Star Trek and Star Wars role playing games.

In my experience women tend to also like games where everyone is working towards a common goal not to kill everything in sight.

I would really like to see more women on the history side of our hobby but pandering to them and have them play in special "women's games" is not (in my opinion) the way to go.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him (her) drink."

It seems that women may or may not be all that interested in "historical" wargaming. I'm not all that interested in rap music nor in rugby. Does that mean that rap artists or rugby is at fault for having no interest in recruiting elderly white guys? Well, some old white guys ARE interested in rap or rugby. God bless them.
I can understand why Black people are not interested in Classic Rock, or Outlaw Country music. They aren't at fault for that. It just doesn't ring their bells, and I'm ok with that.
So, if women have no interest in Cowpens or Brecourt or Cannae, what's the problem?
Are we all to be molded into identical interests?
Must all like philately or numismatics? Jane Austen? Chess? Scientology? WRG 6th Ed?

I welcome men and women of all sexes and races to my games. I even did a game in which all the combatants were women. I will do it at the next Historicon I can get to. I wonder about the "safe space" issue. Are large gaming rooms at conventions not safe.

link

For some reason this story just made me think of this

youtu.be/I2Gghi6FObY

There was a lot that I recognized in the article….for example "I find that more minis gamers use their encyclopedic knowledge to put down those without the same level of expertise than do board and RPG gamers."

Bad social skills are gender neutral.

I once sent such a person into an apoplectic tizzy by responding to his corrections on my actions by waiting until he was done talking, looking up slowly, and saying, "Duly noted." It took about three or four times.

DOM, on the other hand had another gamer (on the other side) "helping" her figure things out condescendingly. Because she is female? Because she was a teenager? Because he was a jerk. When he asked "Do you know what this helmet is called?" At the same time as he sing-songed, "It's a pickle helmet!" she said, "Ja, es ist eine pickelhaube." (Assuming I got my grammar (atrocious) right there – I'm sure hers was right.) Then he shut up and left her alone.

So, who needs a safe space?

"Are we all to be molded into identical interests?".

The PC/Woke answer to that is "yes".

If GW ran "women only" events, they would open themselves up to lawsuits for gender bias and discriminatory practices.

If you feel the need to have a "women only" gaming group – and are willing to face the charges that you are bigoted/sexist – go ahead, but don't demand special treatment from businesses – especially when you are claiming to be interested in equal access.

I've run events at a number of game stores, clubs, and conventions, and found that any interest by a female was welcomed – sometimes to the point of too much welcoming.

To those of you who seem to think it somehow 'sexist'
to develop miniatures games which are designed for
women I'd ask how many times you've heard women say
they didn't want to play a Napoleonic (or WWII or
any other historical game) because they were bullied,
belittled or ignored by the men involved ?

Heard those types of comments a lot.

Tantrum was developed because we were trying to
be inclusive and yet sensitive to some of the realities
of convention games.

From Old Contemptible, the following:

"In my experience women tend to also like games where
everyone is working towards a common goal not to kill
everything in sight."

And:

"I think women, as a whole, are just not that interested
in historical wargaming. They like something with a
story line and back story."

The players in Tantrum do have a common goal and it is
clearly not to kill everything in sight. It is to close
down the newly opened saloon and to influence the men
in town.

There is a well-developed story line and backstory to
the game, since we felt precisely those two points
needed to be addressed (the 'kill 'em all' point and
the backstory/storyline).

So color me sexist if you must. But I think the
sexists are those who would drive women out of a game
rather than including them – kind of like how some
players treat people new to the hobby.

how many times you've heard women say
they didn't want to play a Napoleonic (or WWII or
any other historical game) because they were bullied,
belittled or ignored by the men involved ?

So what part of the rules of which Napoleonic (WWII, etc.) game includes bullying and belittling the other players?

There's a huge gulf between women not playing games and men 'driving women out of a game.' I welcome all players at my table and have seen the same at conventions. I call out boorish behavior when I see it.

Usually, I see men treating women the same they would treat any other player. I think that might be part of the issue. Men treat each other men condescendingly or make rude comments, or try to control their play all the time. Maybe that's the issue. There are crappy players in our hobby- but it's usually not a gender issue, it's an a**hat issue.

As a male, I hate when some 'I know better than you' jerk throws a tirade because I'm not playing the way he would play if he were me. I don't like being condescended to when I'm a new player, either, or playing at a game table where the person running the game is letting his buddies run roughshod over all the other players. None of that has anything to do with gender.

Did anyone see the Little Wars TV clip on issues faced by women in historical wargaming?

youtube.com/watch?v=6atdeEMrLCE

I don't think that anyone could accuse Little Wars TV of not being pro wargaming.

I think the classic case was somebody changing the females troops orders and re-moving them for her.

Food for thought may be?

I REALLY doubt many are "driving women out of a game", false propaganda claims to the contrary not withstanding.

As pointed out though, many women seem to have very little to no interest in "war gaming", and the mere mention of that seems to shock the conscience of some females.

Ed,

I wasn't talking about your game rules specifically. I was talking just in general.

@CHIMPY – thanks for the link. It's interesting that it's the "same" as the Wired article but without the snide asides that are just designed to annoy.

@20thmaine My pleasure.

Did anyone see the Little Wars TV clip on issues faced by women in historical wargaming?

I think I had seen that before.

Outside this discussion, we could go on for days about being a biased survey (not opinion or deliberate – bias from a statistical perspective meaning you are only surveying a self-selected portion of the community, so you can't assume that is representative).

move figures, change orders – This is not just exclusively something that happens to females.

shouldn't need cred? – Again, male players are often challenged on their "cred" by male players.

how people feel – Your feeling are your issue, not society's. Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Ghanim, Mary Wollenstonecraft, Harriet Tubman, Jane Addams, ARchbishop Tutu, and on

cultural underpinning – This one illustrates my point for replying. I don't think (a statistically significant) any wargamers are actually opposed to more women (more people) participating in the hobby. Blaming rules, companies, and wargames is not the path to making that happen. Artificially forcing it to happen isn't either.

No matter what changes are made to rules, tournaments, companies, etc., they won't change cultural underpinning.

I think this is a basic behavioural problem. I also believe it has disproportionate effect on women in wargaming because of the floor effect.

Because there are a small number of women, you can't accurately measure (or an an individual, perceive) those effects properly.

My key point is that there isn't any indication of massive and pervasive misogyny in the companies, rules, or environment. There is an indication of a not uncommon individual behaviour problem that affects both men and women, with disproportionate effect on women.

So, if my fuel filter is not causing a mileage problem with my can, no matter how much work I put into my fuel filter, I won't get better mileage.

If would be interesting to know what the women members of TMP think of the piece

How do you know they haven't already spoken? It's the internet.

But I think the
sexists are those who would drive women out of a game
rather than including them – kind of like how some
players treat people new to the hobby.

But is it any better to create essentially a 'safe space' within the hobby for certain people? Is it still the same hobby? Aren't you admitting they're not interested in the hobby as it already stands?

Why won't the boorish people play the new games too, and still drive people away?

And who are these sexists driving women out of the hobby? I've never observed behavior like that at any game convention.

"How do you know they haven't already spoken? It's the internet"

Bill, you are correct. However, I suspect the number of female respondents to this thread so far has not been great.