"When was the European Dark Ages? . . ." Topic

. . . (for the purposes of this message board)

It's a term historians tend to shun these days and it seems very vague, but it's a popular term amongst wargamers.

Some events fit tidily within the term, like the Viking raids would be noncontroversial, but that's the easy bit.

I get that it kind of starts with the fall of the Roman Empire, whatever and whenever that means. But when does it end?

Asking for a friend . . .

Cheers,
John

"The Dark Ages period was marked by mass migrations, wars and plagues. This lasted some 300 years until the development of feudalism partly diminished the continuous violence. Emperor Charlemagne was crowned in 800 ce, and he promoted order, education and civilization. Europe began to slowly regain what was lost during those centuries."

From a quick google search.
link

I guess it depends on which historian you ask as I don't ever remember hearing an exact date. From the Wikipedia link, they think the Dark Ages ended with the rise of feudalism.

Hmm, so that would suggest that the Viking raids are mostly *not* in the Dark Ages, whereas I would have thought they kind of epitomise that era.The Viking raids into Britain and Ireland began in the 790s.

John

Not quite, the reign of Charlemagne was only the beginning of feudalism which would take some time to establishment, when exactly depended on what part of Europe you were in, some parts of Scandinavia feudalism never really dominated. So it's safe to say the Vikings remain the poster boys of the Dark Ages! When the dark ages officially came to an end is a matter of debate, perhaps when Europe was stable enough to going looking for trouble in the Middle East with the Crusades?

I wouldn't read too much into it. I don't think it's like turning a switch on or off. One day you are living in the Dark Ages and the next you are living in another era. In 790, Britain very well may have still been in the "Dark Age" while the ideas of feudalism were catching on elsewhere. If I were to round it off in 500 year increments, I'd guess the Dark Ages were roughly from 500 AD to 1000 AD. Like I said, it depends on which historian you read.

I wrote to slow. I agree with what Glengary5 said above.👍

For gaming purposes, I like to think of it more as "The Saxon/Viking Age" which pretty well nails how we think about the period for Anglo-centric gaming.

That puts it from 400 to 1066.

I would place it from 1933 to 1945.

Great answers given above. I was just going to add ‘When the sun went down.' But that would be silly.

"That puts it from 400 to 1066." For heaven's sake, who rounds like that? 500-1000 CE.

Some people in Italy in the XV century thought there were 'old good times' when Greeks and Romans built their great civilizations. These were the 'Classic' times of Antiquity. The period afterwards was a 'dark age' for human developement, a 'middle age' between these old golden times and the 'modern age' when they lived.
But we can name them however we like for gaming purposes, of course.
;)

I've always thought it was considered to be from the fall of the Roman Empire to 1066

@Jeff Ewing, while the timing of the fall of the Roman Empire is a bit wibbly-wobbly, 1066 is quite the noted milestone and turning point in Saxon-Viking-Norman history.

"That puts it from 400 to 1066." For heaven's sake, who rounds like that? 500-1000 CE.

It's got nothing to do with rounding. The beginning and the end are key dates in British history:
410AD – the departure of the Roman legions from Britain
1066AD – the Battle of Hastings

The Czechs use the term for what most of us call the Enlightenment, since that's when the Austrians were sucking 70% of the GNP straight to Vienna.

For many centuries "AD" was used after the year, such as "circa 400 AD", or "1066 AD". It was in such common use that most people nowadays don't attach any religious significance to it. Now I'm seeing more and more of "CE". Why are we trying to erase history? Whether you believe in God or not, is not the issue. The fact remains that the dating system of years, going back over a thousand years, which the entire world uses today, is based on a historical event involving a certain person.

Rant over.

I think "feudalism" is overrated for the aspect of slicing history into handable slots. Neither was Karl Magnus with the Franks the inventor of Feudalism, nor was it an all definining system for the society at any stage.

Afaik "dark" is today mainly referring to the number of written sources, or lack thereof, between the end of the Roman time and the introduction of the church as administrative tool of the state (by Karl, among others).
So it would indeed be 450 to 800 for rough numbers.

Petrarch, who probably invented the term, meant "anything after the Romans up until todays enlightenment", writing the 13xx which puts it up to the start of what we today now call the Renaissance, at least for Italy – for most other regions that the high or late middle age. So he plainly included all what we now call the "middle ages" into the dark era.

Since the OP talks about how the term is used for this board, and this board is frequented by wargamers, then it is how wargamers define it which matters for the OP.

Figure manufacturers follow each other and past usage. They would put (most) Byzantines. Saxons and Normans in Dark Ages, but put Romans before and Crusaders after.
Never mind that the Byzantines* were Romans or that 1st Crusaders often were Normans, for the sake of convenience a line is drawn.
410 or 476 for the beginning, 1066 or 1071 for the end.

For DBMM players, Book 3 :) .

*or that there was another 400 years of 'Byzantine' history after Manzikert, but there are few ranges which cover them.

So Attila and the Patsies are cuspish :-)

El Cid is out either way :-)

I was being a bit provocative I know because I realise there is no cut and dried answer, but it's interesting to see what people think.

Thanks everyone for your contributions to the discussion.

Cheers,
John

Never. They are a useless term.

It's all very subjective. My personal take is that the ‘Dark Ages' is anchored in Western Europe and from the end of Rome in 476 CE to 800 CE with the coronation of Charlemagne with the establishment of the Holy Roman Empire. 800 CE is also around the time that the Anglo Saxon kingdoms achieved a level of culture and civilisation beyond the original Germanic raiders so bring the British isles into the orbit of the Carolingians.