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"zoeken vorm kleur van elk cavalerie regiment in austerlitz" Topic


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Comments or corrections?

just joe13 May 2021 5:07 a.m. PST

imal ready inspection?
or regiment by regiment so any dragoons and so on cuirasier husar

just joe13 May 2021 5:15 a.m. PST

for my battle field?

just joe13 May 2021 5:35 a.m. PST

o k name topic to long so
including the flags

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian13 May 2021 5:44 a.m. PST

Need more information, Joe.

just joe13 May 2021 5:52 a.m. PST

same like me

what kind of isum husar wear white and colored which one?

just joe13 May 2021 7:16 a.m. PST

as usually many 1812 uniforms and flags
what's wrong with early ones?

Musketballs Supporting Member of TMP13 May 2021 11:26 a.m. PST

Is it all the cavalry regiments at Austerlitz you need?

Or just the French or Russian or Austrian?

just joe13 May 2021 12:38 p.m. PST

french austrian russian you pic

shadoe0113 May 2021 2:49 p.m. PST

Try these for the Russian army:

link

link

You can also get the Viskovatov volumes as ebooks from Soldiershop Publishing or any number of online services for a very reasonable price.

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP14 May 2021 3:01 p.m. PST

Really when you break it down- there weren't that many at the battle.

For ease of reference, this guy [the same-Gonsalvo?] gives some nice colourful tables… link

others__

picture

Also just noticed, without checking proper records, he lists a 'Soum' and a separate 'Isoum'. Wonder if thats right, and do you know which you want?
///?

just joe15 May 2021 5:14 a.m. PST

dear shadoe01 thanks for this known ifo for me scrolled down but no 1805 cavalry colors and flags thanks any way just joe

shadoe0115 May 2021 9:58 a.m. PST

just joe, the initial post asked for 'colours' which could mean uniform colours (pelisse / dolman) for hussars, facing colours (in general) or, as is now clear, for cavalry standards.

Warflag has cavalry standards for the French and Austrians:

link
link

For Russia it's a bit more complicated. Here's an old TMP topic:

TMP link

The 1803 issue is pretty easy – 1 white and 4 coloured (green) per regiment. Essex miniatures sells some – here's the link to give you and idea of the 1803 issue:

link

The complicated bit is the 1803 issue of standards does not mean that regiments stopped carrying their 1797 issue. The cuirassier regiments (and dragoons converted from cuirassiers) had a standard like the 1803 but with different colours than green for the 'non-white' standards (regimental colours for Austerlitz regiments below). For dragoons the pattern was different – they were somewhat similar to the 1797 infantry flags with a cross (white flag with white 'background' and coloured corner rays and coloured flags with specific colours per regiment.

Empress Cuirassiers – coloured flag = deep pink with light blue corner devices; white flag with deep pink corner devices

St. Petersburg Dragoons – white flag – green corers / coloured flag with reversed colours
Chernigov Dragoons (converted from cuirassiers) = cuirassier pattern with yellow coloured standard
Kharkov Dragoons -(converted from cuirassiers) = pink coloured standard
Tver Dragoons – raised in 1798, so probably 1803 pattern

Light cavalry didn't carry standards, but the Pavlograd Hussars were issued 1803 standards.

Lifeguards

Lifeguards Horse Regiment – similar to the cuirassier pattern. The coloured standard was deep pink with buff corner devices

Cavalier Guards Regiment had Vexilla. Shown here:

link

…and here:

link

The guard cossacks did not carry standards but did have swallow-tailed guidons – 1 white plus 2 crimson ones with a white cross (similar to dragoon style but with a 'swallow-tail').

Note – the names of colours (e.g., deep pink) were taken from Terence Wise's Osprey and Keith Over's Bivouac books. So, 'deep pink' might look like dark red (as in the link above).

Caveat Emptor

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2021 1:00 p.m. PST

I understood all the flags had been posted here months ago- certainly, I'll repeat due to the misconvention of normalisation that resides in gamers minds:--

Russian (Infantry) Flags- A Summary--

Well I've done that much research on this subject because, it affects everything that follows- So…

1- Mad Paul, in 1797, completely redesigned the Russian Armys (in total) standards, and replaced them all. Thus, nothing else was carried. -Crosses (ie Maltese) in various colours, central orange device with black double-headed eagle, by region. One Emperors; 9 'coloured'.

2- In 1800, having promulgated a renewed design, a few were issued to new regiments OR for valour etc. Often only a single flag was bestowed to a recipient battalion. -Very simple addition of the painted cypher in the corners. One Emperors; 9 'coloured'. Not many issued.

3- He died 1801.

4- Alexander I took over, and redesigned the 1800 flag; added his own cypher form 'A1' and issued to some new regiments; others with honours, in 1803. Eagle design changed slightly. Not many issued. Numbers carried had changed to One Emperors; 5 'coloured'- that is for 3 battalions. No regiments had more. (Prior to 1811 all 3 battalions of a regiment were fielded).

5- In 1806, post Austerlitz and need to rebuild, a more elaborate design cypher again. 1803 flags were still being issued (as they had been made…). More new regiments got the 1806 design. Sometimes they weren't issued until well after formation and deployment. Again, other than new, Not many issued. Oh yes the 'St.Georges Flag' honour was created. The first wasn't green at all, it was a 'rose' cross with scrolls and ribbons (light blue) to the Kiev Grenadier regt. ;-) Others were decreed, only some got issued. (Another variable).

6- 1813 and almost beyond me caring, the generic 'green' 'St.Georges Flag' honour was issued more widely for 1812 etc.

7- Cavalry and even Cossacks were carrying their own- since 1797 a lot of regiments had a smaller green fanion, which lasted until late in the period.

So overall, for most of the Napoleonic Wars, Russian regiments carried 1797 style flags and few changed. Unless they were lost/ taken (not replaced); replaced by honour flags; changed Inspections (in that period pre-1807) or 'redeemed' their honour (not virtue) at a later time. 1814 saw a much broader replacement of fancy-dancy flags etc.

And to another issue- there are several systemic errors, I'd hope the above post[SHaT1984] provides both linearity (ie timeline) and substance you require.

Any alteration to carrying PaulI flags does depend on singular regimental level changes moreso than army wide ones till '13/'14 era. I'd reference again, The Redux.. thread.

- –

This recent update also carried some critical publishing corrections, if anyone cares:- TMP link

regards ~d

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2021 1:10 p.m. PST

Since these corrections (uncorroborated or verified) will be lost in time, I'll repost them here with other comments due:
~d
--

nvrsaynvr 09 Apr 2010 10:56 p.m

Here are the corrections and additions for the flags in Hourtoulle, "Austerlitz, 1805".

All white flags are shown with the colors in the corners in reversed order.

The orange central portion was somewhat elliptical, broader than it was high for the infantry flags.

Archangel had an 1800 pattern in brown and green. The 1800 pattern can be seen for Novgorod.
Note that there would be another azure ribbon under the eagle with the battle honor text.
The eagle raised its wing to the fly on both sides of this pattern.

Kiev had a white flag with poppy/blue (always clockwise order) corners. The gray should be dark.

Vyatka used azure and violet. Compare the violet of the Bryansk flag.

Moscow had colored flags with a blue cross and purple field, and a white flag with purple/blue corners.
However, the cloth used was blue & purple shot silk, presumbably laid out on a bias to show those colors.

Ryazhsk has the green and white flags as illustrated, but is mis-labeled Ryazan.

Butyrki uses siskin, which is presumably a dull light yellowish green.

Azov had rose and puce flags.
Compare the cavalry standards with puce medallions which are considerably darker.

Novgorod had 1797 pattern flags. Dark brown cross on azure, and white cross with d.brown/azure corners.

The Tver Dragoons had a 1797 Cuirassier pattern.
Yellow field with red medallions, and white field with yellow medallions, gold lace.

The St. Petersburg Dragoons had a 1797 Dragoon pattern, which was like a small infantry flag but with a heavy fringe and round center part.
Celadon cross on white, and white cross on celadon. Gold fringe.

Her Majesty's Leib-Cuirassiers had a white flag with crimson medallions.
Kharkov Dragoons had a white flag with rose medallions. (The medallions are puce on the colored flag.)
Chernigov Dragoons had a white flag with puce medallions. (The medallions are puce on the colored flag.)
L.G. Horse had a white flag with crimson medallions. (The medallions should be straw on the colored flag, and lace should be silver.)


- -
von Winterfeldt 10 Apr 2010 5:37 a.m

you also find a good article in
Soldats Napoleoniens Nr. 8

Les Drapeaux Russes d'Austerlitz
Texte et schιmas Gιrard Gorokhoff, planches de personnages Pavel Alekhine.

The books by the late Dr. Hourtoulle – like Austerlitz – have to be taken very catiously about the reliability of their uniforms regarding non French units as nvrsaynvr above shows.


--

just joe16 May 2021 12:27 p.m. PST

yes still infantry but no 1805 cavalry russian beep difficult subject huh? thanks any way guys

just joe16 May 2021 1:38 p.m. PST

oeps his comment from shadoe01 seems for me the best any way cheers guys for the rest

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP16 May 2021 2:00 p.m. PST

Unless you find an 'actual' flag for a cavalry regiment, LiebGarde excepted go with the generic medium green guidon that was issued to every squadron by Paul in 1797.
Very difficult to be proven wrong on the table top!

Except for the cossacks attached to the Asutrians, I have no plans for Russian cavalry at this stage.
~d

Prince of Essling18 May 2021 7:31 a.m. PST

From Russian Vexillography website – sorry for the odd translation (google translate)

Pavlovgrad Hussar Regiment – No standard received until mid-November 1807.

Mariupol Hussar Regiment – No standard shown until July 1833.

Elisabetgrad Hussar Regiment – no standard shown until
June 1828.

Chernigov Dragoon Regiment – The predecessor of the Chernigov Regiment is the 3rd Ohokhoomon (Kompany) regiment of free-recruited people in Ukraine. In 1669, the Cossack part was created under hetman D. Multiggressy of 1000 registry Cossacks. Since 1709 it was called the 2nd Ochekomon Regiment, from 1775 – the 2nd light-horse regiment of the Little Russian Cavalry, from 1779 – Chernigov light-horse regiment of the Little Russian cavalry, in 1784 – in Chernigovsky Carabiner; Since 1796 – Chernigovsky Kirasir; in 1798-1801 he was named by the chiefs: Major-General von Essen 2nd, Lieutenant General Musin-Pushkin; Since 1801 – Chernigovsky Dragunsky

On February 10, 1798, the Chernigov Kirasir Regiment was awarded five standards of the Kirasir model of 1797. One standard had a white field, in the corners of The Venzel of Paul I in the pus (pous – the color of "crushed flea", dark red) oval fields. The rest of the standard is yellow, and the ovals under the crowns are pus. Stitching and fringe silver. spear. gilded with an eagle. The cords and brushes are silver. It's green with yellow grooves.
By A.Viskovatov and V. Svegintsov
Note these are the flags when a Cuirassier Regiment:

picture

picture

1803 model flags apparently issued later.

Tver Dragoon Regiment – The Tver Dragoon Regiment was established in Moscow in 1798 as the Kirasir Major General Tsorna; 1801 – Tversky Kirasir; Since 1801 – Tver Dragunsky;

On July 19, 1799, the Kirasir Tsorna regiment was awarded five standards of the Kirasir model of 1797. One standard had a white field, in the corners of The Venzel of Paul I in the yellow oval fields. The rest of the standard is yellow, and the ovals under the venzels are red. The stitching and fringe are golden. The spear is gilded with an eagle, the brushes are silver, the wood is green with golden grooves.
By A.Viskovatov and V. Svegintsov. Sketch from the work of V. Svegintsov
Note these are the flags when a Cuirassier Regiment:

picture

picture

picture

St. Petersburg Dragoon Regiment – On March 26, 1798, St. Petersburg Dragoon was awarded the standard: one with a white cross and a seladon (grayish-greenish) corners, four – with a Seladon cross and white corners, a gold fringe. The spear is gilded with an eagle, cords and brushes silver.
By V. Svegintsov and A. Viskovatov. At the bottom – a photo of the standard, preserved in the Tambov Regional Museum (https://ar.culture.ru/ru/subject/shtandart-1797-g)

picture

picture

Note 1803 model flags not issued until 1808.

Horse Life Guard –

picture

picture

picture

In 1799, the Horse Leib Guard Regiment received 10 standards, with inscriptions: on one side – "God is on us", on the other – "Grace" (two times). At one standard – the field is white, the corners are crimson, in others – the field of crimson angles pale; inscriptions, sewing and silver fringe. The spear is gilded with the state coat of arms, cords and brushes silver. It's green with golden grooves.
By A.Viskovatov. A black-and-white illustration from A. Viskovatov's book. The color illustration is taken from the album "The Banner of the Russian Regiments" (Interros Company). Photo – State Hermitage. It's a s underneath. V. Svegintsov

Chevalier Guard -

picture

picture

The regiment's standard in 1800. The standard reads: "Not to us, not to us, but to your name."
picture

In 1800, the Chevalier Guard Corps was renamed the Regiment. Immediately after the renaming of the regiment were given three new standard in place of the previous: the panel crimson (at V. Zvetintsov "Dark Pink") moire with a white cross (stitched flowers are somewhat lighter background); Galun and fringe silver. The tree is crowned with a silver ball with a double-headed eagle, the cloth is attached to the top with chains. It's green with silver grooves.
The image of the standard is taken from the book "Russian Army 1812-1814", by O.K.Parkhaev. It's a s underneath. V. Svegintsov
picture

Among the drawings to the brief history of the Chevalier Guard Regiment are drawings of three standards. The appearance of the standard is different from that given, for example, in V. zmegintsov. The red cloth depicts a Maltese cross.
"Drawings to the brief history of His Imperial Regiment's CHevalier Guard Regiment from 1724 to 1832. Compiled by fourth-grade Sapozhnikov"

just joe19 May 2021 5:14 a.m. PST

wow
those look good yes now finding them

Prince of Essling19 May 2021 11:10 a.m. PST

Leib Garde Cossacks – from Stephen Summerfield's " Cossack Hurrah" page 37

Standard of the Ural Leib Garde Cossack Sotnia, 1799-1815 – received a 1797 Dragoon Pattern standard. The centre circle was orange with a black double eagle. The breast shield bore the St George motif in the same colour. The crown, beak feet, orb, sceptre and order chain were all in gold. The wreath was green. White flag rays on a red filed without corner decoration.
Note the illustration has a narrow white cross.

Guidon of 1st Sotnia Leib garde Cossacks 1799-1815 – white guidon with a gold fringe and raspberry cross ina gold radiance standard.

Guidon of the 2nd Sotnia Leib Garde Cossacks 1799-1815 – raspberry guidon with silver fringe and white cross in silver radiance. It had a green stave with gold fluting, a gilt finial, silver cords and silver with black threads cravat.

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