Tango01 | 11 May 2021 10:10 p.m. PST |
…Century "When I first visited London, in 1989, I attended a wargaming club in North London. I forget where. The club night featured a renaissance game with Polish Hussars dominating the table. I was captivated. Now, years later, I'm revisiting the army of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (Rzeczpospolita). Poland was the biggest country in 17th Century Europe, nearly twice as big as the next biggest, France. Its army was powerful and combined elements of the east and west. The most distinctive component were the famous winged Hussars, but they also had good light cavalry, and western style pike and shot. And it was fighting the Poles where Gustavus Adolphus cut his teeth as a military commander. This post is about the army of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth…." From here link Also… Polish-Lithuanian Orders of Battle Converted to Tilly's Very Bad Day
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Armand
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BillyNM | 11 May 2021 11:32 p.m. PST |
Surely Russia was the largest country in Europe? |
Charge The Guns | 12 May 2021 3:35 a.m. PST |
Hi Billy, I think it may be referring to population size rather than territory size? I can remember reading some statements similar to this. That's a very useful link, Armand 👍 |
Cuprum2 | 12 May 2021 4:01 a.m. PST |
link The most populated country in Europe, I think, was Turkey. |
dbf1676 | 12 May 2021 5:18 a.m. PST |
Here's a map in 1640. European Russia was much smaller than it was in the 18th Century. link |
Martyn K | 12 May 2021 7:04 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the blog post, an interesting read. I have a few comments, mostly on the choices that I have made for my Polish/Tatar/Cossack armies for 1651: 1) I see that in the top table you have one group entitled Pancerni/Cossacks. In my Polish army I have both Pancerni and Polish Cossacks. The Pancerni are much more heavily armed. The Polish Cossacks I typically have on larger horses than the mounted cossacks of the Cossack army. The Polish Cossacks fought more from the saddle. The mounted cossacks of the cossack army I use as a mobile force but fight dismounted a lot of the time. 2) For the Pike and Shot, I have two types – German mercenaries in Polish Service and German style Polish units. The Polish units are more reliable units. 3) For the cossack infantry I have three types – registered cossacks, non-registered cossacks and Peasants hordes. The registered cossacks I give a slightly better shot value. I have about equal quantities of registered and non-registered cossacks. The Peasant hordes are armed with farm implements. 4) On the cavalry proportions, I see a lot of people loading up the Polish armies with winged Hussars. I don't believe that this was the case in reality. I have the following units: 1 unit of Winged Hussars, 3 Units of Pancerni, 4 units of Polish Cossacks, 5 Units of Noble Levy and 1 unit of Reiters. I am comfortable with these ratios. The Polish/Cossack/Tatar armies are a subject close to my heart at the moment. They were my Covid lockdown project. In about one weeks time these armies will be getting their first table top action as I will be putting about 600 figures (28mm) on the table to fight the first two days of the 1651 Battle of Berestechko. |
Tango01 | 12 May 2021 3:10 p.m. PST |
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oldnorthstate | 13 May 2021 9:24 a.m. PST |
Martyn is correct in his proportions between the winged hussars and other cavalry. He neglects the dragoons, which in my reading, make up a higher and higher segment of the overall Polish cavalry as time goes on. Balagan's blog includes good information but his chart of Polish cavalry includes the dragoons as a "foreign contingent" which he seems to question but is based on the Brzezinski reference…I understood the dragoons performed border security when the Commonwealth was at "peace" and were formed from lower nobility or peasants. A continuing question is whether they were accomplished cavalry given the long hours they spent in the saddle or just mounted infantry with very little combat value when mounted. |
Martyn K | 13 May 2021 10:06 a.m. PST |
Oldnorthstate, you are right I totally forgot about the dragoons. In my defense, I have been initially building forces for the battle of Berestechko, in which dragoons do not seem to have played any significant role. Eventually I want to add some dragoons to my Polish army, but to date I have not found a figure that I like. I keep hinting to the Assault Group that they should add some to their Polish range, but no luck yet, lol. I do follow this blog: link He has converted some more western style dragoons and put on a cossack type head. This fits my view of what Polish Dragoons look like and I may copy this idea at some point. Everything that I have read suggests that the dragoons used horses for mobility around the country, but mainly fought on foot, much like the cossack horse. In fact Ukranian Cossacks formed the bulk of the recruits in the Polish dragoons. I believe that this is why there were not Dragoons at Berestechko as most of them had deserted the Polish forces at the start of the Cossack Uprising in 1648. |
Kadrinazi | 13 May 2021 3:51 p.m. PST |
Dragoons were always classified as foreign troops in Commonwealth. It doesn't matter who there were composed of at any given time, it was they way that they were recruited that counts :) Even those recruited on Ukraine (prior to 1648) could easily be dressed as Western troops, much depended on whim (and purse) of their commander. At Beresteczko there were in fact four regiments and two squadrons of dragoons but they were severely depleted through the campaign of Field Hetman Kalinowski in winter, where they took several losses and many of soldiers lost their horses. For example regiment of Jakub Wejher, that had 'paper strenght' of 500 men, prior to Beresteczko had only 197 men, including 51 dismounted: link |
Martyn K | 13 May 2021 4:06 p.m. PST |
Great info Kadrinazi, thanks. |
Kadrinazi | 13 May 2021 4:34 p.m. PST |
This whole 'turn' into Polish style clothes in dragoons and foreign infantry became more popular in later parts of 17th century. While in many secondary sources you can for example read about lot Polish dragoons at Vienna being dressed in Polish styles, primary sources from period do not really supports it. We can see comments from eyewitnesses that mentioned that Polish dragoons (despite mostly recruited locally, but with some officers and NCOs being foreign) were in fact still dressed 'in German style', so I guess it really depended who was unit's commander and how much he cared about them. As usual, probably better equipped (including clothing) were King's and Hetman's units. During 'Deluge' (1655-1660) it seems that at least part of dragoons were also dressed in Western-style, even amongst Poles. In summer 1656, during his first (and rather short) period of service in Polish army, Scotmsman Patrick Gordon made very interesting observation of the unit of Polish dragoons: "(…) company of dragouns, which were about 80 men, all Polls with blew cloaks after Dutch manner and fashion, the captaine being a Dutch man called Zacharias Mitlach. The ensigne could speak Dutch, but was a Poll". So we can see here interesting mix of Western-type clothing, Western officer and Polish soldiers, which was very common in units of ‘German' infantry and dragons in Polish army of that time. It appears to be private unit of Konstanty Lubomirski. |
Martyn K | 14 May 2021 6:17 a.m. PST |
Kadrinazi, I am guessing that you have access to some books in Polish that many of us are not familiar with. Are there any that you can recommend? these days, some of the translation apps make these more accessible to the rest of us. I am particularly looking for books with some of the organizational information that you discuss, maps of battles and drawings showing uniforms. |
Kadrinazi | 14 May 2021 11:40 a.m. PST |
Well, I have plan to make sure that such materials are more widely available in English ;) Started last year: link And now finishing this one: link With further titles planned. |
Martyn K | 14 May 2021 12:16 p.m. PST |
Thanks, I bought the first one and I will be in line for the second one when it comes out. Please be sure to let us all know when the second one is available for purchase. |
Kadrinazi | 14 May 2021 1:38 p.m. PST |
Cheers :) We're aiming to publish it in time for this year's Salute in November. As soon I will finish this one, starting working on another: Polish and Lithuanian armies during 'The Deluge' (war with Sweden 1655-1660), to be published in Autumn next year. |