"Platoon Scouts" Topic
17 Posts
All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.
In order to respect possible copyright issues, when quoting from a book or article, please quote no more than three paragraphs.
For more information, see the TMP FAQ.
Back to the WWII Discussion Message Board
Areas of InterestWorld War Two on the Land
Featured Hobby News Article
Featured Link
Featured Ruleset Rating:
Featured Profile ArticleCan three Marine players emulate the task of a famous real-life Marine hero?
Featured Book Review
Featured Movie Review
|
Last Hussar | 17 Apr 2021 4:53 a.m. PST |
Something seen in WW2 British training films are 'platoon scouts'. These appear to be over and above the '7 rifle, 3 Bren team' of nominal strength. However I have never seen any mention of them in internet TOEs. We are finding they are incredibly useful – Sunjester tried a scenario without any, and found he was at a disadvantage going forward. What did other armies do? |
Andy ONeill | 17 Apr 2021 6:02 a.m. PST |
My understanding: They found they needed a leader for any sort of scouting or patrolling to be much use. And they found they were almost always short of effective leaders. |
Starfury Rider | 17 Apr 2021 8:53 a.m. PST |
I think I've seen pretty much all the British Inf Bn WEs for the war years and there's no standalone role of scout detailed that I can recall. 'Infantry Section Leading (1938)' discusses the use of scouts, with two men working as a pair, one covering the advance of the other. These are two men from the Section, not additional to it. There are a couple of mentions of scouts in 'Infantry Training, Part VIII', but again not as a specific position. The leading Rifle Section in a Platoon moving forward with one Section 'up' is frequently referred to as the 'Scout Section'. The US Army did count two men per Rifle Squad as scouts. Gary |
Wolfhag | 17 Apr 2021 9:23 a.m. PST |
The US Army did count two men per Rifle Squad as scouts. Usually the new guys until another new guy arrived to replace them or they were KIA. I'd say the "scouts" were really walking point for the unit, that's different than a recon unit. Wolfhag |
Blutarski | 17 Apr 2021 9:50 a.m. PST |
Re "scouts", I have read that platoons on patrol in VN normally (always?) had a man walking ahead, as "point", but also had a man covering the rear of the platoon, walking "drag". Would we define both of these individuals as "scouts"? If so, in WW2, did the same two men always assume those roles? I wonder about stress issues connected with the same men always taking point and drag. Such duty was inherently very "Risky Business", with very little likelihood that you were ever going to meet up with Rebecca De Mornay. B |
Martin Rapier | 17 Apr 2021 10:22 a.m. PST |
One of the numerous WW2 training films has a platoon of Welsh Guards attacking a German MG position and using a pair of scouts advancing by bounds as they move to contact. They were just selected from one of the rifle sections by the platoon CO and operated 100 yards in front of the lead section. This is quite early war as they have a Boys ATR and the platoon runner diligently wheels his bicycle along. I can't recall exacy which one it was, but I think it was in the 'shoot to kill' series. |
Andy ONeill | 17 Apr 2021 10:37 a.m. PST |
@Wolf, the us squad scout concept was nowhere near as practical as just taking point. The us squad scouts were supposed to go off on their own and do sneaky recce stuff. What seemed like a great plan in theory resulted in these scouts just doing nothing much. Because these are conscripts rather than ninja special forces. As a result, the whole idea was quickly shelved. |
Andy ONeill | 17 Apr 2021 11:00 a.m. PST |
@Blutarski. Chindits had a tail end charlie. In jungle they'd move down trails. One risk was a jap patrol trailing a column. A column would have one man with a bren trailing somewhat on a trail. There were frequent river crossings and this was a particularly tricky point to be ambushed. To take advantage of this, tail end charlie would wait for a while once a river had been crossed. He could then easily shoot up any trailing japs. Dad's friend Jack Lindo once found himself watching a river. Rather bored – they crossed many rivers – he was startled to realise there were japs crossing the river he was covering. He shot them up of course. There must have been quite a few because he ended up chased into the column positions by a dozen or so. They had been warned by his shooting and were ready. Things did not go well for his pursuers. |
Wolfhag | 17 Apr 2021 1:57 p.m. PST |
Blutarski, Yes, we called it "Walking Point". There is no single way to do it and much depends on the terrain. Normally a point man is needed when in a column in fairly dense terrain. Ideally, the "point" is somewhat like a pyramid. You have the point man and then another guy on each side slightly behind as support. Everyone normally took their turn walking point, including the LT. IIRC there was a scene in "Band of Brothers" (tank counterattack?) where the platoon deployed in a treeline to cross a clearing and sent two Scouts to "check out" the other treeline. Wolfhag |
Wolfhag | 17 Apr 2021 2:36 p.m. PST |
Andy, You'll have to send me info on the "The us squad scouts were supposed to go off on their own and do sneaky recce stuff. What seemed like a great plan in theory resulted in these scouts just doing nothing much. Because these are conscripts rather than ninja special forces." The "sneaky recon stuff" was left to the recon guys, not the Grunts although some may have been capable. Battalion Recon and Scout Snipers operated/integrated with the Rifle Battalions and Force Recon (the Ninjas) behind enemy lines on their own. Those are two different missions. In a Rifle Platoon, we never used the term "scout" other than maybe the SL saying, "Hey, you and Bobby Joe go scout ahead for a while" which was more like a short patrol and not walking point, it was more or less informal ad-hoc arrangement. I never heard of "squad scouts" (except WH 40K) as an official title. I don't think there is any mention of a "scout squad" in the Marine Rifle Platoon Manual. Rifle Platoons and Companies are not expected to be ninjas. In fact, in VN it was the opposite. On a Search & Destroy mission the idea was for the enemy to notice and shoot at you and then call in air and arty support and airmobile units to cut them off. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't, just like any tactic. Finding the enemy was the hardest part and what most missions were about other than small stealthy ambush patrols. It's hard to generalize about the US in the VN war. At the start, it was a regular and very professional military with many WWII and Korean War vets and few draftees. There were few morale, drug and racial problems. The draft was expanded and later the IQ standards dropped. That's when problems really started occurring and "MacNamara's Morons" filled the ranks. I was in during the latter part, it was a very different military by then. I went through recon training and I'll tell you a moron will not make the grade. Map and compass reading, sniper training, stealth operations, fieldcraft, and learning various procedures and radio operations are complicated. Most of us were brought up in the country (the Everglades for me) and had been shooting/hunting most of our life and played team contact sports. There were very few city boys and most of us from the South, Texas, and out West. We could be stealthy and had experience hunting and tracking. Regular Grunts are normally anything but a Ninja. Wolfhag |
Starfury Rider | 17 Apr 2021 5:18 p.m. PST |
The US Marine Corps' 1942 issue of "Offensive combat of small infantry units" did identify two men in each Rifle Squad as being scouts (similar to US Army practice). The relevant T/Os refer to them as riflemen; link I've not seen any contemporary training material that detailed how the superseding 12-man Rifle Squad was to be deployed in similar terms to the above manual. The late 1945 literature on the 13-man Rifle Squad refers to the possibility of a Rifle Platoon sending anything from a single Fire Team to a full Rifle Squad out to act in the scout role. Details of the duties of scouts with US Army Rifle Squads are detailed in FM7-10; link Gary |
Andy ONeill | 18 Apr 2021 5:13 a.m. PST |
The twelve-man infantry rifle squad used in World War II comprised a squad leader, an assistant squad leader, a three-man automatic rifle team (machine gunner, assistant machine gunner, and ammunition bearer), and seven riflemen, two of whom were designated as scouts (see figure 2).9 The proposed nine-man infantry squad was made up of a squad leader, two scouts, an automatic rifleman (machine gunner), an assistant gunner, and four riflemen (including one grenadier).10 link |
Last Hussar | 18 Apr 2021 5:36 a.m. PST |
Here is the film mentioned by Martin Rapier. The attack starts at 6:30, actual scouts appear at 7:40. (yes we all know there wouldn't be a lone MG with no support – its all about demonstrating the principle of fire and manoeuvre." YouTube link Sunjester and I think they may be a couple of blokes the Lt and Sgt think have the nous to do it, and looking at giving them a stripe at some point – this is to give them some experience. (Note, because of 'Regimental History' the section commanders are called 'sergeant'. Note also the officer's accent!) |
Legion 4 | 18 Apr 2021 10:21 a.m. PST |
Details of the duties of scouts with US Army Rifle Squads are detailed in FM7-10; Yes, in more modern times each Infantry and Tank Bn had a Scout Plt. Scout was actually a separate MOS. But most Infantrymen were trained to do recon missions, local patrolling, etc. The US ARMY Ranger School is an excellent place to learn all forms of patrolling among other fieldcraft/skills. In WWII it seemed many times as noted, those chosen as "scouts" per se, may not of have actual training as scouts. It was more of a "duty" than skill. We learned about recon and scouting based on lessons learned in Vietnam. And you'll even see some lessons learned in e.g. from WWII in the Ranger handbook. Patrolling in all forms is a very involved "skill". In many cases you are not to engage. But just gather information, observe & report. But many Scouts today and even a few in WWII were trained to call in FA, Airstrikes, etc. But as I said overall it appears in WWII, many designated as Scouts [or even Snipers] may of have little training in that skill. As we see especially at the beginning of WWII the Germans really understood Armored/Mech recon/scouting ops. Actually designing their Recon elements as small combined arms units. Expected to find a weakness in the enemies' line. And exploit it if possible. Some of the rest of the armies had to catch up, like many things "Blitzkrieg" tactics showed. We saw in the CBI/PTO with thick jungles, very rough terrain, etc. There dismounted patrolling/recon/scouting really was a standard. We saw that come back with lessons learned, etc., from WWII with LRRPs Vietnam. Those lessons were much from the the experiences & training of the UK Chindits and US Army's "Merrell's Marauders". Even at the beginning of WWII as seen in the desert. The LRDG became the eyes & ears of the UK forces in North Africa. And initially they were only to observe & report. But later in the war working with the SAS, etc., they became not only a recon force, but raiding force. If the situation required it, etc. In both/all these cases we see how terrain influences, along with situation, almost everything. Wolf mentioned this and much of his training & experience was similar to mine. Patrolling, and the fieldcraft that goes along with it is a skill Infantrymen have to become very familiar with in more modern warfare. Even master … Using both mounted & dismounted patrols, both with the Infantryman and Scouts is very much one of their most important missions. As we learned Patrolling could be more than just recon, but include ambush & and raids. We learned that as ARMY ROTC Cadets with Recondo training. Then at the Infantry Officers' Basic Course. And of course at the Ranger Camp. Many of the other branches of the US Military, e.g. USMC, SEALs, etc., attend the Army Ranger School. And of course the Army parachute school, both at Ft. Benning, GA. [I believe Ft. Benning will be renamed along with other Army posts in the near future.] |
Wolfhag | 18 Apr 2021 2:20 p.m. PST |
Thanks for the links Starfury. The Marine manual from 1942 is most likely written on pre-WWII experience and probably operations drawn from the Banana Wars, Haiti and Central America. "Scout" was a very common term in that era and "recon" does not appear to have been used. In the Army manual description, it states the "scouts" operate within the visual range of the Platoon leader. They may be within their unit or out to 500 yards. A "scout" operating within the unit is normally called the "point man" but you could call him a scout too. It also states that as soon as the scout determines the edge of the wood is clear so the rest of the Platoon can move up. This could formally be called a "Route Recon". You could also say it's a version of a "Bounding Overwatch" too. With a point man moving in a column it could also be considered a "Moving Overwatch" too. Use whatever term you like. Whenever a unit halts they send out patrols, listening posts, scouts, etc, whatever you want to call them. It's all about security and enhancing the unit's Situational Awareness. The details of how to do it are up to the PL or patrol leader. They could say, "go scout the area", "recon that village", "check out that tree line", etc. It's really all the same thing. Somewhat like a Bounding Overwatch. As Legion said, patrols are designed to avoid contact but depending on the situation and level of stealth you need to maintain you might set up a hasty ambush if the tactical situation presents itself. Your security elements (scout, recon, etc) operate within the visual range of their parent unit so they can communicate with hand and arms signals and also so the parent unit can provide covering fire if they need to fall back. Of course, the scouts could choose to leave their parent LOS to better check out the area too. It all depends on the situation and mission. As far as the Marines "designating" two Scouts I think it's left up to the LT or patrol leader on how to do that and it's just common sense. They could select two guys as the Scouts for the entire patrol or as needed when they come to a situation needing to be checked out. Personally, I would not want to be the "designated" Scout for a patrol as I'd think the LT had a Death Wish for me. In my experience, it was normally the PL telling the nearest SL to "get two guys to check out/scout that tree line" and the rest of the guys will provide cover fire if needed. Everyone took their turn walking point and acting as scouts as no one was designated other than taking your turn. The LT walked point and he might also "scout ahead" by himself too showing his guys he's not afraid to do whatever they'll do. It's called leadership. Platoon Leaders are expected to lead from the front. The biggest difference between the Grunts, Recon, Scout Snipers and Raiders is the their mission and specialized training for insertion methods (parachute, repelling, rubber boat, etc) and calling for support, arty and sniper but the concentration is on observation and reporting. The patrolling techniques were similar except for the 4-6 man recon using stealth. It's hard for a Platoon to move anywhere and be stealthy. The term "Ranger" pre-dates the AWI to small units that "ranged" in front of the main unit operating independently. Today the Marines would call them Force Recon or Raider units. The US Army used the term LRR(recon)P which could have also been "LRS(scout)P". If someone asked me the difference between scouting and reconning I'd have to say scouting is a temporary tactical task local to the unit. Recon is independent, out of the LOS of other units and from 1-2 days up to a couple of weeks but the terms can be used interchangeably. Scout Snipers provide close reconnaissance and surveillance to the infantry battalion they are attached to and generally do not operate much beyond the FEBA, that's Force Recon territory. Battalion CO's do not generally control Force Recon or Raider units. Actually, I was the designated "Scout Swimmer" for my Platoon which is the only "scout" designation I can recall other than Scout Sniper. It was not a specific MOS or on the TO&E. When inserting by rubber boat me and another guy would swim into the beach from about 600 yards out, check out (recon, scout) the landing site, and then signal by flashlight for the rest of the Platoon to paddle in. We didn't have a weapon. We had flippers and an old Mae West we would have to blow up if we needed it. The Marines now have a specific Scout Swimmer MOS that has more specialized training and part of the recon TO&E. In my Platoon to be the Scout Swimmer you just needed to know how to swim and be stupid enough to jump off a raft in the middle of the ocean at 1am. A couple of years ago I was at the Marine Base at Kaneohe Bay, HI hanging out with some Force Recon guys there. Their current training involved jumping from a hovering Osprey into the water with 150 pounds of floated gear and swimming two miles to the beach with it, mounting up and going on a 12 mile forced march. I'll pass on that one. In a game using squad or platoon-sized units per figure, there should be some type of rule that would give a unit a larger "Situational Awareness" bubble for spotting and reaction purposes if static. The faster you move the smaller the "bubble" is for you. Wolfhag |
Andy ONeill | 19 Apr 2021 10:17 a.m. PST |
The link sent provided goes on to say. Additionally, based on their World War II experience, the participants at the Infantry Conference believed the smallest unit capable of organic fire and maneuver was the platoon. Proponents of the new squad—who were in the majority in Committee B—argued that during World War II "the rifle squad almost never employed tactical maneuvers in the attack, i.e. the Able, Baker, and Charley elements of scouts, base of fire, and maneuver."14 In his lecture on infantry organization, Connor stated that "wars are won by platoons" and added that "in combat, fire and movement is a platoon job."15 Subsequently, conference participants saw the squad as capable of fire and maneuver only at the platoon level—either establishing a base of fire to support the maneuver of other squads within the platoon, or maneuvering as a single unit while another squad provided supporting fire. Many of the conference participants, especially those in Committee B, did not believe that the squad was capable of fire and maneuver at the squad level (one fire team supporting the maneuver of the other fire team with fires). Thus, they reasoned it was unnecessary to keep the twelve-man infantry rifle squad for its greater capacity for fire and maneuver. |
Legion 4 | 19 Apr 2021 4:35 p.m. PST |
The term "Ranger" pre-dates the AWI to small units that "ranged" in front of the main unit operating independently. Yes, e.g. Roger's Rangers fought "along side" the Brits in the French and Indian. During the AWI … he was a "Tory" … did not support the American fight for independence from the Crown. Interesting post Andy … thanks ! |
|