"Differences in 28mm Figure Pricing" Topic

I just got a notice that Footsore is raising its pack of 4 28mm infantry to £8.00 GBP or £2.00 GBP per figure. I compare that with Aventine which charges £4.80 GBP for a pack of 4 figures. Perry charges £7.50 GBP for 6 figures. I consider Perry, Aventine and Footsore about equal in quality. The difference in pricing is huge. What gives? Obviously different companies make different calculations but the discrepancy between the Footsore and the other two seems large.

Perhaps Footsore is just ahead?

Well, compare all those to Warlords new offerings -

link

And then you must pay the new higher postage costs from them on top of that!

Makes Footsore look quite cheap!

To each his own, I guess. But I did see a post recently that metal prices were going up again, so maybe Footsore is ahead of the curve.

I did an analysis of cavalry units (including shipping to the US). Prices were all over the place. Footsore was very affordable. Aventine was in the top third of prices. And surprisingly, Foundry was not the most expensive (it was second).

This is a deep philosophical question best addressed by buying first those castings on your list which are most affordable.

So vote with your feet unless Footsore make something that no one else makes and that you really need.

Zowie! $20 USD for 3 punks? I'm surprised these aren't flying off the shelves…

Charge what the market will bear.

Just as well I have a huge lead pile. So there is an upside ??

I could probably get by for five or six years without buying a single new figure. Since I am 77 could that be a lifetime's worth :-(I must admit that I do get carried away when I find something creative and unique.

I have lots of excellent footsore figures so I don't think I need anymore. Maybe if they come out with some new VBCW figures, but I have plenty of Ancients and medieval's.

I wonder, if I were to sell figures should I start at the price I paid or the price they are going for now, with a little discount? Are figures like automobiles that depreciate or houses that appreciate?

I actually haven't bought a new figure since … well, a long time ago. So if I see something I really like, I guess I'll feel like I can afford it.

I remember back in the day, back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth…
I could get Minifigs and Hinchliffe 25mm infantry figures for $0.25 USD
And then, along came Der Kriegspielers. A blister pack of 6 figures for $1.98 USD!
That's $.33 USD/figure!'
"No good can come of this!" I muttered. I was right.

Minifigs at $0.25 USD were outrageously priced, when we could buy Scrubys for $0.10 USD!

Rick

A company generally prices what the market will bare or a profit they are happy with. If they priced themselves out of the market their sales will quickly reflect it. As the value of the pound rises(and should rise further the way we are spending) it will start to be a real luxury buying from the UK.

It should be noted that Footsore are VAT registered while Aventine appear not to be…

Mike

+1 Florida Tory.

It depends completely upon the quality and subject of the figures for me. I'll happily pay quite a lot of money for the right figure(s) if I really want them, cost (within reason) isn't a factor really.

I recently paid £10.00 GBP for 5 1/76 scale figures depicting WW2 REME at work and was happy to do so, the figures are fantastic.

Besides VAT, as Mike (Black Hat) points out, and which will, crudely, add 20% to the price in the U.K., there are a number of factors that affect the price of miniatures:

First, are the figures contract cast or cast by the business itself? Contract casting comes with a much higher base cost.

Second, which metal is used? Although metal isn't usually the largest cost in a figure, lead-free pewter costs as much as two and a half times the price of a tin-lead alloy used by many U.K. manufacturers.

Third, does the business sculpt its own figures or pay to have them sculpted? Sculpting your own has a massive effect on initial costs. Or does the business license its sculpts, and pay the sculptor a royalty? I've been in a situation where the royalty on licensed castings was 40%.

Fourth, does the business sell through retailers or a foreign agent? If so, it has to make its money after accounting for retailer or agency discounts. You can expect figures to be up to 50% more expensive if they are also sold by this route. Figures boxed or blistered for distribution through retailers also have packaging costs to consider. A business that only ever sells direct to the customer can afford to charge less.

Fifth, is the business full-time and how many employees does it have to support? Does it run from an industrial unit or from home? There are a number of businesses that run part-time for the love of doing it and which as a result have a skewed idea of pricing. Price too low and you can find yourself continually overwhelmed by orders and develop a reputation for being unreliable. It's why one solution to too much work is for a business to put up its prices. :-)

That just scratches the surface. In short, some wargames business have substantially higher base costs to cover, or a more realistic idea of their margins, prices and workload, and charge accordingly.

So, on a quick look, Aventine sculpts its own and does not have a business unit; Footsore is VAT registered, operates from a unit, uses external sculptors and has products that go through retailers. It has more base costs to cover, and its figures will inevitably be more expensive.

Perhaps Fighting 15s but the price difference between Footsore and Aventine is almost double per figure. I would suggest they are approximately equal in quality but Footsore is about 80% more expensive per unit (with respect to infantry. Cavalry is a bit closer in pricing.) I might also point out that Aventine offers unit packs as well that get the price lower per unit, something Footsore used to do but no longer seems to offer. I am more curious in the marketing strategy. My hunch is Aventine is going for more unit sales and Footsore is pitching itself to smaller, skirmish style basing (ie. Saga rules.)

I would suggest they are approximately equal in quality but Footsore is about 80% more expensive per unit (with respect to infantry. Cavalry is a bit closer in pricing.)

20% extra for VAT, at least 40% extra for sales through retailers, commercial building costs adding upwards of £5,000.00 GBP a year, sculpts at £200.00 GBP+ each instead of in-house for time only. It's not difficult to account for the differences.

I have, after all, experience of selling figures as an agent, as licensed castings, and as my own castings. The costs of doing the latter are far less, and so you can charge far less. None the less, you can do all three at once, offering well-priced figures plus agency and licensed figures, and people will still accuse you of price-gouging on the expensive ones, because all they can see is one is twice the price of the other.

In the specifics of Aventine and Footsore, neither company sells through retailers so the 40% in your calculation is not relevant to the comparison. As an overseas customer the VAT shouldn't be an element of the price comparison either (ie. Footsore should do what Gripping Beast, Perry etc. does and remove the VAT on overseas sales.) That knocks off 60% of the difference. If Footsore was only 20% more expensive I'd wouldn't have raised the issue.

If you feel that strongly that one particular company is overpriced, without really knowing anything about its business model, don't buy them. It's a free market.

Why didn't I think of that Basha?!

It's never the concern of the consumer what the companies costs are. It comes down to what their willing to pay for the product.

It's never the concern of the consumer what the companies costs are. It comes down to what their willing to pay for the product.

Not in this case. What I am commenting on is the discrepancy between various companies of comparable quality in the pricing of their product. I am also trying to account for it.

@Marcus Brutus

Even though Fighting 15s approach to costs analysis is lopsided and both ignores and leaves out many of the flaws in the miniatures industry, there really doesn't have to be an explanation beyond what the market will bear.

It seems like the markets are operating properly for Footloose minis and they know their product is sought after; you prove this by wanting it but not wanting to pay a premium for it.

After this, in a free market, no company has to justify prices for a non-necessity. If they miscalculate, they will drive themselves out of business. However, they have no requirement to justify their prices.

I would suggest that Fighting 15's probably does understand the market rather well. All manufacturers are not equal, some sculpt their own figures, some employ sculptors, some are small part time operations possibly operating from home or a small unit, some are large costly operations employing lots of people.

I don't know about Aventine, but Footsore seem to be a medium size company with a defined business model, they have expanded their range significantly since I first bought from them.

But it is absolutely up to the manufacturer what they choose to charge for their products, and also whether they choose to remove VAT for overseas customers. I should say that even given quite a large disparity in cost, I am willing to pay if the figures are good quality or I like the sculpts, and I am far from well off.

It's called a free market.

Figure manufacturers charge what they consider to be an optimal price for their business and you're free to buy them or not.

I would suggest that Fighting 15's probably does understand the market rather well.

No, he does not; not from what he has set down. He may understand merchant's concerns but I don't see that as a complete story. He makes assumptions and excuses for merchants that fall outside market principles. Having said that, it is true that this is a very quirky, ramshackle industry and that many of the merchants not only operate outside of market principles but also appear to behave like the judgment proof. Thus, on further reflection, if by understanding the market, you mean that the industry operates in a sort of market "no man's land", then he might indeed understand some of the market, if only from the merchant's perspective

All manufacturers are not equal, some sculpt their own figures, some employ sculptors, some are small part time operations possibly operating from home or a small unit, some are large costly operations employing lots of people.

Almost all of them are under capitalized and many have a "I'm doing the customer a favor" approach. I clicked on a company advertising here and they're closed for personal reasons. It's hard to imagine a serious business doing something like that.

Au Pas de Charge,

I'd be interested to know your experience of the particular economics of manufacturing and distributing Wargames figures such that you can be quite so critical of F15's brief overview of some of the many factors that may impact on the ultimate price paid by the consumer – I've worked in manufacturing industries superficially similar to this one, with plenty of under-capitalised, often part-time (or even ‘hobby') one-man companies, and his observations seemed valid to me.

In such businesses, yes, there are often individuals that don't have the right social skills to deal with customers in the right way.

And they are inevitably vulnerable to disruption by illness, bereavement etc – doesn't make them any less serious about their business, just sometimes sh&t happens – and that's never been more likely to happen than in the last 12 months thanks to the small matter of a Covid pandemic.

In the specifics of Aventine and Footsore, neither company sells through retailers

Footsore's Gangs of Rome figures, for example, are available through a number of retailers, as a search using Google would reveal. Therefore they will be offering retailers a discount and pricing all their figures accordingly.

he might indeed understand some of the market, if only from the merchant's perspective

I am after all, a merchant: that's the one perspective I can offer. :-) But I have just repriced my figures to take account of new metal prices (up 40% since I last bought pewter), and to allow for my agents' discount and a margin that means making figures for the agents is worth my time, and reweighed a number of figures where I think the price seems out of kilter because time has distorted the original basis on which the costs were worked out. I don't have an industrial unit to factor in, nor glossy packaging, nor staff, otherwise I'd be adding at least a third as much again. I don't have licensing fees to worry about either.

Can one business sell a 28mm figure at half the price that another business does, because their business costs are far lower, yes. Do some customers prefer to believe that one is price-gouging rather than accepting it has far higher costs than the other business, unfortunately also yes. It's a time when no one wants to believe facts.

Fighting 15s, I trust you understand that metal cost only makes up a fraction of the total cost of a figure. Considering that all metal miniature manufactures have the same basic challenges in dealing with inputs the question becomes the discrepancy in pricing. I just haven't been persuaded by your points that Aventine and Footsore are so different as to explain that the later is almost twice as expensive per unit as the former.

As to those who say the manufacturers can charge what they like in an open market I say, absolutely. All power to them. If you look at my original posting that wasn't my question or even comment. My question was attempting to understand the rather large difference in pricing between Aventine and Perry on the one hand and Footsore on the other.

I think you are now going in circles Marcus Brutus. The only people that can tell you WHY their prices are set as they are is the companies themselves.

Ian has good knowledge of the industry and his points are all valid – some people have lower overheads and lower requirements for income AND sometimes they are simply running their business badly and underpricing against what their real costs are.

Others are running a professional business which aims to be around in 10-20 years time and are factoring in all the costs of staff, plant, factory, etc

Mike

The only people that can tell you WHY their prices are set as they are is the companies themselves.

But I want to know! I have my suspicions. There is the law of diminishing returns. The goal is to move the most product at the highest price. Finding the sweet spot. I have also been curious of Foundry's thinking around this. With most of the design costs already payed for one would think that they could move a lot of product and still be very profitable. Instead they keep their prices high and that discourages me from buying from them. Footsore has headed in the same direction as Foundry for me. Good product but has become too expensive except for small purchases.

There is the law of diminishing returns. The goal is to move the most product at the highest price.

Although this seems awkwardly written, I think you got this backwards. In fact, lower production avoids violating this law.

Sometimes but not always. The more fungible the item, the more likely selling as many as possible is a good thing.

However, Foundry may make new molds at twice the rate of other makers; molds cost money. Maybe they have a specially trained pet casting the minis and if he casts too many per day, his fur risks catching on fire. Maybe they dont want a lot of customers, maybe they only want a handful of customers and/or a small volume to keep a cachet about the name. That would be the luxury brand model.

I can tell you, if you get pro painters to paint your figures, a lot of them like brands like Foundry because they are consistent, flash free and have excellent detail. Conversely a lot of those painters hate the "slop in a bucket" brands that sell mounds of figures cheaply. In fact, I have had painters refuse to paint certain manufacturers' miniatures (Based partly because they hate painting them and because they argue that the customer gets well painted junk) which means that, if we assume someone wants figures painted by that painter, in some cases, higher figure prices are actually a cost savings.

With most of the design costs already payed for one would think that they could move a lot of product and still be very profitable.

That might be your own answer. If the production costs are mostly paid for, then everything they make is gravy. Perhaps they're at a point where working harder isn't worth it; a form of the diminishing returns you mentioned above.

Footsore has headed in the same direction as Foundry for me. Good product but has become too expensive except for small purchases.

Do you think that Footsore and Foundry dont know this? I think Foundry does a tidy business.

But you touched on something here. You want the product but you dont like the price. That's only a market factor if there are enough consumers that feel the same way and obviously, there are not.

Again, I buy boatloads of Foundry for painters to work on and, frankly, the cost of the minis are dwarfed by the cost of the paint jobs.

@Fighting 15s

Your factors are good ones but they are only one part of the market story. Additionally, consumers might be unimpressed by a merchant's costs.

There is a merchant who casts vintage figures which seem to have some sentimental value. His prices are for them seem very high for what they are. I wanted them for a specific purpose and I wanted a lot of them but they would've been too expensive.

I contacted the merchant for a discount and he gave me double-talk. Thus, like Marcus, I wont buy them. However, he seems frequently to sell people 4 or 5 of them at a time.

Apparently, he doesn't want to sell oodles of them, he wants to capture the nostalgia purchaser; maybe he even fears a special price to someone like me will ruin the "4 or 5 figure sale at an exorbitant price" gig he has going on. In any case, he gives me the impression that he is delighted with himself and he has perhaps achieved a form of utility.

Price gouging is really not a factor here because Marcus asserts that there are comparable quality alternatives for less money.

Most producers want to get the best return for their product. The return is the combination of the highest price and the sale of most units. The sweet spot is the best combination of the two. I am curious about Footsore's positioning. Neither Foundry or Footsore gets my business because of their pricing. That means the total potential for unit sales has been curtailed. That doesn't necessarily hurt either of them because their sweet spot doesn't need me. Personally, I think a lower price per unit that encourages greater volume makes more sense but I realize (as others have noted) that in historical miniature sales normal market forces don't necessarily work quite in the same way.

Marcus Brutus 04 May 2021 11:41 a.m. PST
Fighting 15s, I trust you understand that metal cost only makes up a fraction of the total cost of a figure.

I believe I am on record on several forums and on my own social media channels as stating exactly that.

I have outlined a number of factors that are not to do with the price of metal. But you choose not to believe them.

Additionally, consumers might be unimpressed by a merchant's costs.

None the less, regardless of what the customer might think, some of us refuse to sell at a loss, or at a price that makes the effort not worth the time.

We may as a result price ourselves above some potential customers' budgets. :-)