"Hellcat with 90mm Gun" Topic

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Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

Interesting. There were plans to do this, but the war ended before any were produced (I think).

This is a topic very dear to my heart. My Dad was in the 801st Tank Destroyer Division and in the later stages of the war, they transitioned from towed 76mm M5 anti-tank gun to the M18 Hellcat. Although he very seldom talked about his war experience (he was Bronze Star recipient during the Battle of the Bulge), I remember him telling me that the new 90mm was a much better gun than what the 76mm was. I was in college at the time, and decided I knew more about subject than he did, correcting him by saying the Hellcat was equipped with a 76mm gun. Maybe he meant they upgraded to the M36 Jackson? He got pretty irritated with me (rightfully so) and told me "I loaded the damn gun, I think I know what I am talking about!"

I did confirm later that the 801st upgraded to the Hellcat, and not the Jackson. It wasn't until years later, after his death, that I learned the M18 with a 90mm gun was produced, but supposedly, according to the article I read at the time, never saw action.

I have a tendency to think he was right, however, and the 801st were issued the heavier gun, but I have no proof other than my father's recollection.

What a great story. As a teenager I treated my parents like idiots, who had picked up nothing but fake news over the years. As I grew in wisdom and read more history….

How I still regret that I was such a pain.

A good example is my Mom telling me how a "huge" German battleship visited Dublin harbour pre war (Dun Laoghaire). Impossible insisted I, until years later I read of the Schleswig Holstein

Yes, my parents got a lot smarter between my 15th and 25th birthdays!

+1 donlowry. Miss them a lot now they are gone.

True words indeed, pzivh43.

B

Mark Twain's take on it:

forbes.com/quotes/6568

Rick

Florida Tory, you beat me to it!

"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."

Mark Twain

Oh that is brilliant….never heard that before.

Thanks. I will value that and try to pass that on to my three lads (but at 26 times two and 40 they seem to be past that difficult age).

I think it was my generation. We were so obnoxious in retrospect.

Yeah, I have two daughters, 19 and 21. I can't wait to get smart again!

On a light vehicle like that wouldn't there be quite a large recoil?

Mobius, recoil is an issue. But the Sheridan ran with a 152mm gun so anything is possible.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

I remember a while back, talking to a WWII Vet at the VA Clinic. He mentioned the M18s in his unit had the 90mm. I thought he may have been confused, etc., at his age.

Now I guess the Old Warrior may have been correct ! I never knew the M18 got the 90 …

On a light vehicle like that wouldn't there be quite a large recoil?

I'm only going with what I know about AFV design, maintenance, recovery, etc. But I'd imagine there may have an upgrade to the M18's suspension, etc., to "handle" the 90. Again, I'm only making a SWAG … so …

the Sheridan ran with a 152mm gun so anything is possible.

M551 was a unique design as the main cannon was a combined weapons system. It fired the 152 rd. and could also fire a 152mm missile. The M60A2 also had the same weapons system. But from what I understand there were some problems with this combined weapons system at times.

"But the Sheridan ran with a 152mm gun so anything is possible."

Just a teeeeensy difference in muzzle velocity.

Sounded interesting so I did some checking. The M10, M18, and M36 all have a 69" turret ring, so does the Sherman. That's 4" wider than the Panther and Tiger II is 75", Tiger I 73"

The M18 and M36 have hydraulic traverse and the M10 manual only. The M36 weighs 63,000 pounds, M18 39,000 pounds, and the M10 65,000 pounds.

The 3" GMC M10 tank destroyer was based on the medium tank M4A2. The 90mm GMC M36 was completed by installing a new turret on the hull of the 3" GMC M10A1; both new production hulls and M10A1s returning from the field were converted.

The M36B1 was constructed by mating the 90mm M36 gun turret with the hull of the late-production M4A3 Sherman. Eventually supplies of M10A1 hulls were used up, so diesel-powered M10 hulls were converted to the 90mm turret, yielding M36B2.

Source: link

Wolfhag

Yes, the M18 Hellcat with 90mm was a prototype only from what I have read. Only one made. So it would seem unlikely that anyone used one in combat.
But sometimes records are wrong and sometimes people mis-remember.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

Yes, my parents got a lot smarter between my 15th and 25th birthdays!

Strangely, as I've gotten older, I've discovered that my father had quite the imagination when it came to his life story. Especially his war record.

My recall matches what i just read from the chieftain's hatch. The cexperimental m18 with 90 mm was made in june 1945. The trials revealed several issues. Recoil was worked round somewhat by an improved muzzle brake. The tracks wore out far too quick so needed redesign.
The whole programme started february 1945.
Those technical findings sound like they'd be dated reports.
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics Captain".

Maybe someone field fitted 90mm guns but wouldn't they have hit those same issues?
Seems to me more likely they got m36 or crews completely misrecalled a 76 into a 90.
I interviewed a number of ww2 veterans. I was quite surprised how uninterested they were in the things i considered important.

But sometimes records are wrong and sometimes people mis-remember.

That is very true especially as time passes …

I interviewed a number of ww2 veterans. I was quite surprised how uninterested they were in the things i considered important.

Andy, that's because many former military, especially enlisted, are mostly interested in talking about things they griped about the most, fun they had on liberty, getting over on officers, stuff they stole, and other things that would get you banned on TMP. Well, at least the Marines.

If you want to break the ice with someone that was in the military just ask them what they did that was the most fun. It should bring a smile to their face right away.

The same goes for Rugby players. If you want to get them talking, don't ask Rugby questions, ask them about the best Rugby parties they've attended.

Wolfhag

There was a film of the 150cm sIG33 firing which the recoil practically tossed the crew off the vehicle.

Yeah, Wolf my dad liked to tell about the practical jokes he played on people entering his electrical shop on his ship. I guess they would heat up the door knob and anyone coming in would get a hot hand. Plus the engineers built model planes from spent 20mm and 3" shell casings.

I had the good fortune of getting to know a WW2 shipmate of my dad's aboard USS Lardner (DD487) in the PTO. My father never talked very much at all abut his service. The funniest story his shipmate shared with me had to do with the return of their ship to the USA – a long voyage south from Japan, through the Strait of Malacca, across the Indian Ocean, down the east coast of Africa and round the Cape of Good Hope to Capetown, SAfrica, where the ship stopped for fuel and the crew were given liberty ashore.

A few days later, having departed Capetown headed for New York and 300 miles out in the Atlantic, the captain discovered that two South African "ladies of the evening" had been smuggled aboard for a trip to the States. The ship had to return to Capetown to dispose of the women before the voyage to the States could resume. The captain was obviously quite annoyed; I don't know what happened to the "organizers".

File under "Lost History".

B

Dad would go on at length about drunken nights out and camel riding. They had camel drawn taxis which were almost silent where he was stationed for a while in India.

Most details of jungle training he wasn't so keen on describing.
Not much fun by the sound of it. Always mud. Up down and river crossings.
His big tips on river crossing.
Don't be the first one across or tail end charlie. Put your pack on upside down so the water drains out.

The first bloke got to swim across with a pistol and rope. Tail end charlie stayed behind with a bren to shoot up and warn of any trailing jap patrol.

I'm glad I read this post. When I saw the title I couldn't figure out how anyone thought it was possible to mount a 90mm gun on an F6F.

I had the great pleasure of taking my father to a local history museum and sitting with him while they did an oral history of his time in the Marine Corps. A memory I shall treasure for the rest of my life.

Blutarski,
When I was on a Med Cruise we stopped off at Portsmith, Engalnd. Some of the guys smuggled a "Lady of the evening" aboard. Within a week about two-dozen guys had reported to Sick Bay with the clap, not me.

Wolfhag

There was one port in the Gulf that, after every visit we'd see one division or another putting out their mattresses on the flight decks. Sunlight kills crabs. I think it was Abu Dhabi or Dubai…