"Benteen & Custer" Topic

Front Note: No interest in starting a war here – just an observation.

Recently I stumbled across a ten year old video series on Custer. It is a couple of hours long and is basically an enthusiast's video of the campaign with his commentary. I found it very good. You can find it here: YouTube link

Anyway, while I was watching it something occurred to me.

As I understand it, Benteen's hatred of Custer more or less stemmed from the Washita when Custer refused to search for the missing Major Elliott.
Again, as I understand it, Custer was worried that more natives were coming and the rest of his command was in danger.

Isn't that exactly (more or less) what Benteen did at LBH?
Refused to risk his command going after the missing Custer? And then is applauded for saving the his own command even though the missing command was completely destroyed?

I realize the details are different, but the similarities struck me as interesting.

Custer refused to go after a platoon which had disobeyed orders, having no idea where the platoon went, and into a situation that had not been scouted.

Benteen disobeyed an order, in which his command was an essential part of the plan, knowingly leaving Custer alone. Custer was not missing. He was on the opposite side of the village that Benteen was suppose to attack through.

Custer demonstrated sound judgement. Benteen demonstrated cowardice.

Benteen's hatred of Custer predated the Washita. Jealousy at being older than Custer was, but subordinate in rank.

Also, Custer was a dramatic, flamboyant, beau sabreur, like Stuart, Lasalle, and Murat. Benteen was just the opposite. Personality clash.

Also, Custer did send out a party to search for Elliott without success.

I agree with beausant except as to Benteen being a coward. He was peeved that he thought he was missing the glory by being sent on his scout to the left. In my opinion, he did not want to go help Custer out of "sour grapes". But I don't think he ever thought Custer would be in serious trouble. When Terry's troops came up with the news of the disaster, he refused to believe it. He then realized he might be in some trouble and led to his totally unbelievable testimony at the Reno Court of Inquiry The main points of this were that he denied hearing gunfire from Custer's direction while on Reno Hill, and that he knew Custer was dead before the "Come on. Big village. Be quick…" order reached him when he was about near the flat between lower forks of Reno Creek.

Benteen was very brave in the defense on Reno Hill during the fight on the 26th.

Tom

Benteen was a scoundrel.

Tom and Beausant nailed it. The dawdle by Bentsen earlier was a part of the reason he even met Reno at all. If he had been advancing with a purpose he would have made contact with part of Custer's command before the disaster was completed.

Thanks

John

Benteen was a fine Officer. Ask the Confederates at Mine creek as to his aggressiveness. Benteen and Reno were surrounded and couldn't have relieved Custer under any circumstances. If you have every been to the battlefield , it is a question of who has the higher ground. Benteen /Reno had the High ground and Survived.

One can be both brave and a scoundrel. The two qualities are not mutually exclusive.

Benteen was certainly brave and aggressive at Mine Creek. For some reason that was lacking at LBH. Certainly they were not so surrounded that they could have pushed on to take some of the pressure off of Custer's command.

and got the rest of the command killed, and the Indians would have still gotten away.

Agree Benteen was not a coward, but he was the sort of subordinate no commander should be stuck with. He seems to have willfully misinterpreted and ignored orders throughout the battle and the inquiry. Directly on point he stopped at Reno Hill, and made no effort to even find out where Custer was or see what could be done to carry out his order to "come quick" and "bring packs." Everything done along those lines was done without his knowledge.

That said, it's not clear that it made any difference in the outcome. Everything hinges on (a) how fast Benteen could have moved forward with the pack train and (b) just how long an organized element of Custer's command survived. Since the Sioux unaccountably failed to synchronize watches and file written reports with the War Department…

The interesting fact that is rarely discussed is that Boston Custer who was riding with the Pack train was able to reach Custer and died at Last Stand Hill. He actually passed through Benteen's Command to reach Custer. He had no issue reaching him. Benteen wouldn't have either. Looking at the disposition of Custer's companies seems to imply that Custer had deployed two of them to keep the way open for Benteen to arrive. His last intelligence he received was from Boston Custer who would have said he had no problem reaching Custer. I am not saying all of Custer's command would have been saved if Benteen had acted properly. But it is quite possible some would have. After all, one Company under Godfrey's command was able to hold off the Indians who were coming from Custer's defeat to Weir Point in large numbers in a fighting withdrawal to Reno Hill. He lost one man and that was due to him not being able to ride because of his wound.

Thanks

John

I may get mauled by the PC crowd for this, but I sometimes think that too many people think that the Natives were capable of coordinated actions like an army is.
Of course, they had many courageous and effective leaders. However, every warrior was free to act as he thought best. And like any group of soldiers, not all would have been equally brave superheroes. No doubt some had suicidal courage; however, it must be equally true that there would be others content to stay in cover, not take risks and occasionally pop off an un-aimed shot in the general direction of the enemy. Then brag later about their courageous deeds. Every army has soldiers like this, why should they be any different?
The point I am trying to make is that a Native force, without a command structure, no matter how courageous or motivated, will have an extremely difficult time reacting to several threats at the same time. They just did not have the command structure. But what they could do was react to multiple threats in succession, with a bit of a pause between each one. – which is what happened here.
They made a determined stand at the first Reno fight because they had to delay them long enough for the non-combatants to escape. Elsewhere, it seems like every time there was a determined advance, they fell back and went elsewhere. Kind of like thrusting a spear into a river.
Had Benteen acted with any alacrity at all early on, I am convinced he could have pushed through to Custer. I suspect had that happened, Custer's force would have been much more concentrated – not strung out trying to keep a path open. This means the Natives would not have been able to overwhelm one or two companies at a time, as they did.
I have never read anything about the enquiries after the battle. But I am extremely skeptical about the Army's motives. Their primary goal would be to maintain the honor of the service. Everything else is secondary, if not tertiary.
Reminds me of what happened to Finland after WWII. The Soviets demanded that several of their war heroes be imprisoned out of spite. The government basically told them that political expedience demanded it and that they served their country well in war, and now it was time to do so in peace.
I wonder if this was true for Custer. It was time for him to serve his country by being a scapegoat.

I tend to agree with you. The oft mentioned comment about Custer dividing his command is that he was a fool. He also is blasted for not scouting the ground out. The whole idea of this campaign was based on converging columns to trap the Indians. They were more concerned about them escaping than being defeated. No battle in the Plain's Indian War this large had ever occurred before and would not again.

The Indians who Custer's command spotted early on were not on their way back to the Indian camp. The Indians never were alerted and had no scouts out at all. Custer did not know this. Like I mentioned above, his concern was that they would escape from him. He had no idea of the size of the camp. His attempt to move towards the camp and likely capture the non-combatants alerted him that he was facing the middle of the camp. It wasn't the end. IMHO, many of the failings that day happen due to the unusual nature of this battle. Largest gathering of Indians during the Plain's War, Indians always trying to flee as the Cavalry would try and engage a camp and finally the fact that Crook who had just fought a battle with many of the warriors before this day had NOT communicated with Terry, Custer or any of the other columns. This was a HUGE factor, I believe. This led Custer to take the actions that day that he did.

Thanks

John

Has anyone tried to game Benteen's command pushing through to Custer?

Benteen had the pack train, which would have been much slower than Boston running hard to die with his kin. What happened to Custer's command is unknowable, with E troop being a notable exception. Also, Benteen/Reno had to consider the sorry state of the wounded. The pressure slackened on Reno because the Indians left Reno to counter the Custer threat. Dividing a force in the face of Indians may have worked in the past, but commanders need to be flexible and stay current with the capabilities of the opponent. The size of the camp was an out of context problem for Custer, Reno, and Benteen. None of whom rose to the occasion. The real tragedy in all this is the poor troopers who died because their officers failed to adapt to the situation and surrendered the initiative fairly quickly to a superior force who used it to devastating effect. There's also the possibility that Custer was killed at the river crossing early in the battle and someone else was in command. By the time they get to Weir's point the Indians were moving towards the Benteen/Reno position. Let's not forget the Indians reacted and then responded to the danger in a manner that was effective in turning back Reno, destroying Custer, and turning back Benteen/Reno. The goal of the Custer expedition to keep the Indians from dispersing wasn't met. However, the Indians were able to meet their goals of making sure the Nation's non-combatants were saved from each threat as they arose and were able to leave uncontested. No, the Indians had no one directing the battle, but, as a whole the fighting force did what was necessary to prevail. Having interior lines made communication and maneuver easier, which must have been a major contributing factor in their success. Conversely the cavalry had all the problems associated with exterior lines, no effective lines of communication/supply and no concentration of forces. All these issues lead to a good day for the Indians and a really bad day for the cavalry. Jus' sayin.' :)

BTW- A direct descendant of Crook was a Professor at my college. Didn't take any classes from him, but my wife knew him. Decent fellow as far as I know.

Adam Vinatieri – a kicker in the NFL – is a descendant of Custer's chief musician

McDougal had the pack train and Company B along with the extra troopers from each Company. He was not part of Benteen's Command. Benteen spent over 20 minutes watering his horses after he had turned back from his Scout to the main trail. Weir had become so concerned about the unnecessary delay that he finally rode off with his Company in the direction of Custer's advance. If Benteen had not taken this long he would have never seen Reno. This is when Boston Custer passed thru Benteen's command. If Benteen had delayed only a few minutes for the horses to water his Command would have arrived a bit after Boston to Custer. Now this may have meant there would have been more survivors or more dead. But Benteen could have reached Custer.

The pack train's mules became a problem at the morass which delayed it. but Benteen wasn't around to see it as after Weir had left he followed up with him.

Thanks.

John

John, a man traveling alone moves much faster than fully laden mules. Also, hot dry dusty day, the horses and mules would have needed water. It was late in the day and, near as I can recall, they hadn't had water for some time. If Boston is riding past Reno on Reno Hill, it means the Indians who confronted Reno were already moving to Custer's front. The di was cast at that point. Even if Reno/Benteen abandoned their wounded and moved toward Custer, it was already too late. Indians were between Reno/Benteen and Custer. Reno/Benteen would have had to cut their way through (abandoning their wounded as they fell) only to arrive in time for the end game. Maybe. There is no way of knowing when Custers left flank gave way and moved to Custer Hill. Even if Reno/Benteen passed on beyond Weir Point the link up troops were already gone. More dead and abandoned wounded to reach Custer Hill. Tactical Consumption would have whittled away at Reno/Benteen as they moved closer to Custer Hill. They certainly weren't getting there unscathed. How much, I don't know? Would those left be enough to stem and turn the tide, that's unknowable. What we do know is that a lot of wounded and others remained alive to continue their lives. Sometimes a Commander's only option is to save as many men as possible. If the Indians had pressed their attack on Reno/Benteen, they had a good chance bagging them also. If Reno/Benteen had been up against another type of opponent, they would have probably died. The Mahdi's Army would have most likely prevailed. Thankfully, Indians fought in a different manner. Nice to talk with you again. Cheers Norris

Hi, I think we may not be discussing the same circumstances. Benteen was not in charge of the Pack train. In fact he left it behind at the morass. Boston is riding past Benteen at the Morass not at Reno Hill. Benteen would never have met Reno at all. If he hadn't burned that extra time watering their horses and basically dawdling (officers were debating if he was doing it purposely at the time) he would have been long gone from Reno Hill by the time Reno arrived there. Now the question really should be if Benteen follows orders and reaches part of Custer's Command without the Pack train and Company B would anything have changed? Would Reno have been overrun? I have no idea on those questions. I guess you'd need to game them out many times to see how that happens. If Reno is overrun would Custer have succeeded in reaching the end of the camp and capturing hostages? Would the LBH be remembered for the loss of Reno's command? I find those questions to be quite interesting. I don't really believe there remains much doubt among historians that Benteen didn't follow orders.

Thanks.

John

Custer's last written orders (IIRC) tell him to hurry up and bring the pack train (ammo). I would assert the orders conflicted with each other. "Hurry" is not a word to be used with a pack train. It seems to me Benteen could have killed his horses racing to Custer. Losing the odd trooper along the way because of a dead mount. By the time Benteen gets to Custer the mounts are blown, he's lost some men along the way, and now he's in command of infantry. Not sure ho that would have played out. Also, Benteen is not present to support Reno in order to stabilize the situation on Reno Hill. I've mulled these things over for several decades, and most scenarios become a Hobbesian Choice for Benteen, abandon the pack train to save Custer, abandon Reno to save Custer, kill his horses to save Custer, turn cavalry into infantry to save Custer. Or, save the pack train, save Reno, remain cavalry (sort of).To be sure, Benteen had no idea how badly it was going for either Reno or Custer. Evidence indicates none of the officers knew just how badly they were out-numbered. None of the officers knew the terrain. Lines of supply and lines of communication did not exist. Therefore, the escalating danger to Custer could not be known by Reno, Benteen, or the Commander of the pack train. There are so many variables that can't be known. Did Custer willfully sacrifice Reno as bait to occupy the Indians while he swooped in, via an end run, to capture the aged, women, and children to be held hostage? Every thing that could go wrong did. Strictly speaking, from my military training, each decision made by the officers commanding the forces raises so many questions and answers nearly none of the ones for which I'd like answers. I started to seriously study this battle while in college, even wrote a paper on it. This was ten+ years before the prairie fire fire mid 80s. I'd make several changes now based upon the info derived from that study. Also, a book on the movements of E company was a real eye opener for me. Studying the LBH battles is like playing golf – it's fun and frustrating at the same time.
Cheers
Norris