Shadowdragon | 19 Feb 2021 7:13 p.m. PST |
Are there any mass combat games where the armies look and feel like you're playing with actual armies? I know it's meant to be representative, but all I can find are games where each "army" is basically just a few dozen guys divided into a handful of units. I'm looking for something that looks more like a tabletop version of the Total War games. Is there anything like that out there? |
Bashytubits | 19 Feb 2021 7:39 p.m. PST |
Go with smaller scales, 6mm, 10mm keep the base sizes the same as they would be for larger scales. Units will look suitably numerous if you do this. As for rules pick an era or genre that interests you and do a little research. There are lots of good games that would do what you are after. |
Lucius | 19 Feb 2021 7:45 p.m. PST |
Tactica 2 does it. It was unapologetically designed to do just what you are looking for. I usually have at least 300 figs per side. This is not a skirmish game on steroids. It is a mass combat game on steroids. |
Legionarius | 19 Feb 2021 7:45 p.m. PST |
My Ancient and Medieval 15mm armies use more figures per unit Chariots are two per stand. Roman units are 12 per cohort, with skirmishers and cavalry as the Britons. I like how the army looks. I use To the Strongest Rules which allow you to choose how big and how many figures your units have. Some people have considerably more figures per base than I do or use multiple bases. Personally, I don't like figures smaller than 15mm because I like to see them and I like to paint them well. But, to each his/her own! Cheers! |
smithsco | 19 Feb 2021 8:33 p.m. PST |
Kings of War Historical. Unit size to figure number is as follows: Troop-10 infantry Regiment-20 infantry Horde-40 infantry Legion-60 infantry. Cavalry have a different number I don't remember off the top of my head. Play it with 6mm. My Mongol army is about 400 mounted figures. A friend has a Bronze Age Egyptian army with 1000+ troops. |
Wargamer Blue | 19 Feb 2021 8:39 p.m. PST |
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Marcus Brutus | 19 Feb 2021 8:40 p.m. PST |
I think there are lots of options for rule choices actually. Below is a picture of a Middle Assyrian vs NKE match up ca.1250 BC. About 400 figures per side. Rules are Impetus. Scale 28mm (I disagree about having to use small scale figures.) I like the large dioramic bases in Impetus. ADLG doesn't look great to me even though the games look fun. This was played at a convention with inexperienced players in 3 hours, in part, because you are moving blocks of units together which makes the game move quickly. The bottom picture is from a scaled down version of the battle at Cold Wars 2020. Again, notice that the units are blocked together. This is an essential element of true mass battles rules IMHO.
20160319_113518 by Eusebeia2002, on Flickr
20160319_112455 by Eusebeia2002, on Flickr
20200314_192310 by Eusebeia2002, on Flickr |
Erzherzog Johann | 19 Feb 2021 8:53 p.m. PST |
Most of the games, if they aren't skirmish level, would fit the bill. Quite a few have already been mentioned. DBM/DBMM/BBDBA all also meet those criteria. And most systems can be used above the recommended size. My (limited) understanding of ADLG is that the typical army is about half that of a typical DBM/DBMM army but I'm sure it could be played using bigger armies. My advice as a starting point would be to see whether it recommends that you base your figures on single figure bases. If it does, it's probably not going to do what the OP wants. It it bases them on multiple figure bases or on unit trays, the system is probably worth looking further into. Cheers, John |
KevinV | 19 Feb 2021 9:45 p.m. PST |
Like legionarius, I use a bigger base, with lots of 15mm figures and terrain bits. I think they look pretty cool. |
aegiscg47 | 19 Feb 2021 11:32 p.m. PST |
As Wargamer Blue stated above, Warmaster Ancients in 10mm gives a good appearance of massed armies. While I have a lot of armies in 15 and 28mm, they don't have the massed effect of the 10mm armies. |
Martin Rapier | 20 Feb 2021 12:25 a.m. PST |
Any element based rules will let you use tons of figures, whatever the "official" basing scheme might say. Just use smaller figures or bigger bases or whatever. In lockdown I've been playing a lot of One Hour Wargames which only have six units a side, but I just made up some big sabot bases and pile those figures on there. You can get a surprising amount of stuff onto a 6"x6" base…. |
kodiakblair | 20 Feb 2021 7:23 a.m. PST |
Myself and many other 2mm gamers are watching Mark Backhouse's Strength & Honour with interest. The basic unit is a legion or equivalent, 4-500 men. Once you've fought battles in 2mm it's hard to take any other scale seriously.
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Dexter Ward | 20 Feb 2021 7:44 a.m. PST |
To the Strongest, Sword & Spear, DBMM, Tactica all feel like mass battle games. The first two of those don't care how many figures are in each unit, so you can have them as big as you want. |
Frederick | 20 Feb 2021 7:52 a.m. PST |
We have used the Hail Caesar rules in 28mm with 200 plus figs per side and it looked pretty good – but I think for really big battles 15mm or 6mm would be a better way to go |
Marcus Brutus | 20 Feb 2021 7:54 a.m. PST |
Once you've fought battles in 2mm it's hard to take any other scale seriously. I like the 6mm look but reviewing your photo above kodiakblair I am not persuaded by 2mm. |
williamb | 20 Feb 2021 9:37 a.m. PST |
Scutarii from Hoplite Research available from LULU print on demand, their webstore, Caliver Books in England and in Germany. Figures are 6mm from Baccus 6mm, Rapier Miniatures, Heroics and Ros, and Irregular Miniatures. Several thousand figures per side. Raphis has almost 4000 sarissa armed infantry and 43 elephant units. The Roman consular army represents two legions and two ala with over 1000 infantry figures. Paraetakene
Pharsalus
Raphia
Basic pickup game on 5x6 foot table Republican Rome Consular army vs Epirus
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Parzival | 20 Feb 2021 10:25 a.m. PST |
Since you posted in the Fantasy board as well, I'll throw my recommendation in for Warmaster (any version). The following isn't ancients, but it will give you the idea of how a game can look— and this would be a relatively low-numbered game in terms of overal units:
This features a mixed smaller army of elves, men, and dwarfs trying to relieve and hold a beleaguered fortress against an enormous horde of goblins and wargs (with a giant, giant bats, and trolls in the mix). The photo is from early in the battle— the Goblin left has already attempted an assault on the fortress, but been repulsed with heavy losses— yet the goblins still outnumber the good guys! Scale is 10mm. Figures from GW (OOP), Kallistra, and Cobblestone Castings. Fortress by Sally 4th (OOP, I think). Hills and river by GW. For more on this battle, go here: link Search under "Warmaster" or "10mm" to see other battles and pics. |
kodiakblair | 20 Feb 2021 12:05 p.m. PST |
@Marcus Brutus I played 6mm for many years, if you vist the Irregular Miniatures 6mm section there's a photo of my Scots Schiltron 2000 odd figs strong. Trouble with 6mm is you see far too much. This handy graphic shows battlefield visibility at distance. The wargames general has a ridiculously unrealistic view of a battle.
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advocate | 20 Feb 2021 12:13 p.m. PST |
It comes down to how many figures, and what scale, you want to play. As said above, there are plenty of options. |
Sundance | 20 Feb 2021 2:37 p.m. PST |
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Lieutenant Lockwood | 20 Feb 2021 3:58 p.m. PST |
Well said, Kodiakblair. I am also a devotee of 2mm, and it provides the look of a real battlefield like no other scale. I've done 2mm AWI, AZW, and now I'm dipping my toes into LOTR fantast using Hail Caesar….such fun. All the best…Mark |
Marcus Brutus | 20 Feb 2021 6:08 p.m. PST |
Hey kodiakblair, I don't understand what your graphic above is trying to explain. The fact that we stand over the top of the battlefield with a God's eye view is the unrealistic element of wargaming. But then of course, it is a game after all. Aesthetics matter and frankly 2mm doesn't cut it for me. Giant blobs moving around the table indistinguishable from each other. I like a bit of pageantry in my games. |
Marcus Brutus | 20 Feb 2021 6:09 p.m. PST |
williamb, I love those 6mm pictures. I have seen some of these (or like them) on Baccus' website. My only problem is that I hate painting 6mm. Tried it and gave up. But I do appreciate the effect. |
kodiakblair | 21 Feb 2021 5:40 a.m. PST |
@Marcus Brutus I thought it was quite clear,at deployment all ancient commanders saw were "Giant blobs, indistinguishable from each other.". Unless spies had successfully made it back with stolen battle plans, commanders deployed their troops trusting to tradition, guesswork and luck. Spent 20 years with larger scales, gradually going from 25mm down 6mm. My frustration with the visual aspect actually got worse when fielding 1000s of 6mm troops. Then I tried 2mm. With both figure scale and ground scale fixed at 1:900, figures are in harmony with terrain. I also use 1:1 for figure ratio. Recreating battles with 20,000 troops per side is not uncommon. Terrain finally has some meaning, there's no 4 tree forests on my table. |
BigRedBat | 21 Feb 2021 7:12 a.m. PST |
This is one of out larger To the Strongest! games- the battle of Ipsus. This ran with ten players on an 18' table. Covid-permitting, I hope to take an extended version around the UK shows this autumn. I just need to add a couple more ranks to the phalanx. :-) There are a bunch more games on the blog link. link |
Marcus Brutus | 21 Feb 2021 10:39 a.m. PST |
I thought it was quite clear,at deployment all ancient commanders saw were "Giant blobs, indistinguishable from each other.". Who cares what ancient commanders saw? Wargaming is a game, not a simulation. The fact that we have a God's eye view means that we have vantage point no ancient commander had. NKE and Assyrian chariots don't look the same I like being able to properly distinguish between them. |
Marcus Brutus | 21 Feb 2021 10:40 a.m. PST |
BRB, how many refs would you have for a game like Ipsus above? Were the players experienced with TtS? |
kodiakblair | 21 Feb 2021 3:14 p.m. PST |
@Marcus Brutus We obviously have different reasons for being here. |
Legionarius | 21 Feb 2021 9:39 p.m. PST |
It appears that some gamers don't want to see their figures! |
mc deli | 24 Feb 2021 7:34 a.m. PST |
@shadowdragon I also wanted to go from Total War to tabletop, dreaming of big battles in 15mm. I have found a "home" with ADLG. The basic 200 point game means 100-150 figs depending on the army. 300/400 point games mean big big battles. But… what I've learned is that a 200 point game raked 3 hrs for beginners, and is complex, challenging and with enough drama… so I dream less about 400 point battles – also because "more armies!" to paint. The main reason I was attracted to ADLG was because I found local players – and I found Madaxeman. If you find DBMM, MEG or ADLG players near you – meet them, go for that. And, if you are interested, here is the active bit well hidden ADLG FB community: link |
Uesugi Kenshin | 24 Feb 2021 12:53 p.m. PST |
I find Hail Caesar can when you use 6/ 12/ 24/ 48 man units. Kings of War does as well, particularly when you play with armies that use several units of "Hordes" at 40 figures per unit. |
Samsonov | 26 Feb 2021 4:05 a.m. PST |
If 2mm is lacking in detail then what about 3mm? Currently avaliable for Romans, Celts, Orcs and Elves, with Hoplites, Persians, Dark Elves and Dwarfs in development. See oddzial osmy and microworld games for details. Magister Militum also have a range covering quite a few more eras, although I am not a fan of their sculpts. |
BigRedBat | 06 Mar 2021 1:05 p.m. PST |
Sorry, Marcus, I missed your post. 10 players, generally experienced. I was probably theoretically available as an umpire, but likely playing in one of the other four games that were running on the other tables. As a general principle, I feign incompetence regarding the rules so that people usually don't ask me twice. ;-) |
Sgt Slag | 08 Mar 2021 8:29 a.m. PST |
I've played some really large games in several scales: 6mm (WW II), 15mm (Napoleonics), 25mm – 28mm (fantasy), and even 54mm (Army Men games). Many have felt like really large battles, due to table sizes employed! I played numerous 6mm WW II games on a 6 x 10 foot table; I've played numerous Napoleonic 15mm games on the same 6 x 10 foot table. I've plaid dozens of 25mm – 28mm fantasy games on tables which are typically 5 x 9 feet, but I've also played these scale of fantasy games on tables which were 12-20 feet long! I've played a couple of 54mm Army Men games on a table setup which was 12 x 30 feet! The table size, for me, helps create the feeling of a very large game. I've also played out 25mm fantasy and 54mm Army Men games on smaller tables, which felt a bit small, or even cramped, on a 5 x 9 foot table! I can say, however, that every game is a blast -- some more than others, but each has been a joy to play. YMMV. Cheers! |