FatherOfAllLogic | 09 Feb 2021 8:08 a.m. PST |
It seems that cavalry units had MG's attached at some level of the organization. How were they conveyed? Hitched up to carts? Carried in carts? Broken down and carried by the men on horseback? Trucks? |
JimDuncanUK | 09 Feb 2021 8:22 a.m. PST |
Which nation? Which conflict? |
DyeHard | 09 Feb 2021 9:05 a.m. PST |
As an example: 1918 UK European theater Machine Gun Corps (Cavalry) Squadrons What was a MGC (Cavalry) Squadron The MGC (Cavalry) Squadron consisted of 8 officers and 203 other ranks, equipped with 299 horses, 18 limbers, 1 GS wagon and 1 water cart. These were formed up into six two-gun sections each of a Subaltern, 33 men and 46 horses. The Squadron was commanded by a Captain or Major. So 18 limbers with 12 MGs, presumptively the extra 6 limbers were ammo and spares. |
Martin Rapier | 09 Feb 2021 9:18 a.m. PST |
As noted, some were carried in carts, others were loaded up on the horses. Depended on the type of MG and nationality of the unit in question. The MGC Squadrons mentioned above were only formed in 1916, by combining the existing Regimental MG troops. A lot of British cavalry units were issued Hotchkiss LMGs for use at regimental level, and they could be carried on the horses. The Germans seemed to prefer Madsens in the light role for cavalry units, as the MG08/15 was almost as heavy as a standard MG08. |
ZULUPAUL | 09 Feb 2021 10:17 a.m. PST |
My Father in law was in a Cav unit of Michigan Guard in the 30's. They used pack horses for the MG detachment. |
John the OFM | 09 Feb 2021 11:12 a.m. PST |
Russians and Poles used a horse drawn cart, a Tachanka. link |
Cuprum2 | 09 Feb 2021 8:21 p.m. PST |
The tachanka began to be used by the Russians only during the Civil War. Prior to that, cavalry machine gun teams used pack horses to transport machine guns. One very important thing is little covered in the Wikipedia article – the tachanka is not just a cart. The tachanka is, first of all, a cart equipped with good springs, which provide fast movement and excellent maneuverability. Including – directly on the battlefield. The tactics of using them in the offensive consisted in the fact that the tachankas went in the first echelon of the attacking cavalry and, when approaching the enemy at a distance of effective machine-gun fire, diverged, with a turn, to the flanks of the attacking cavalry mass. Preparing the cavalry attack with massed machine-gun fire on the enemy from a fairly close distance, the tachankas greatly facilitated the task for their cavalrymen. That is why the Poles adopted the tactics of tachankas from the Russians. But, of course, with the development of means of warfare, the tachankas quickly lost their relevance as a weapon of the battlefield. |
FatherOfAllLogic | 10 Feb 2021 7:15 a.m. PST |
Thanks guys! DyeHard I assume the MG's were aboard the limbers, not pulled behind like artillery? Thanks Cuprum2 for the info. |
John the OFM | 10 Feb 2021 9:50 a.m. PST |
If you're doing 15mm, Battlefront used to carry tachankas in their Soviet range. They still might, but everything is up in the air after 4th edition became canon. Peter Pig has an excellent set, though. |
DyeHard | 10 Feb 2021 10:48 a.m. PST |
This is not my main period of interest. But if you are really interested in the UK during WWI. Look would appear, that the MGs are not on their own carriage, but carried in a limber. Before WWI, it was very common for MGs to be mounted on their own carriage like light artillery. I looked for photos to attempt to lock down my understanding. The best I have found is this:
If one looks in the background, there are limbers and they appear to be free of any towed weapons. I can not attest to this being the same unit. The photo from The National Army Museum: link |
Cuprum2 | 10 Feb 2021 9:17 p.m. PST |
Russian cavalry machine guns in the WWI:
Usually the machine gun was transported disassembled. In a combat situation, it could be transported assembled, which made it possible to quickly open fire. The infantry machine gun was transported on a special cart^
|
Cuprum2 | 10 Feb 2021 10:03 p.m. PST |
In these episodes from Soviet films, the actions of the tachankas in the offensive are correctly shown. The tachankas attack first. They fire at the enemy until the moment their cavalry comes into contact with the enemy. They then continue to escort the attacking cavalry, providing immediate fire support when organized enemy resistance resumes. YouTube link I did not find the cut scene from the film. Watch between 55.23 – 57.55 minutes of the film: YouTube link Not only cavalry Makhno possessed tachankas, but most of the infantry was planted in tachankas. It was a kind of "motorized infantry", which had a phenomenal fighting power due to the large number of maneuverable machineguns, as well as quite an unusual in those times the speed of movement. |
FatherOfAllLogic | 11 Feb 2021 7:52 a.m. PST |
Great stuff Cuprum! Those movies look awesome, but for us foreigners, it's hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys. I wonder if watching the tschankas in action can gives us any insights to how chariots were used in biblical times? |
FatherOfAllLogic | 11 Feb 2021 8:13 a.m. PST |
DyeHard, I see the limbers but it seems sketchy to drag the MG's behind the limbers: sort of like pulling your lawn mower behind your pickup. Perhaps they were loaded aboard in some fashion? |
Cuprum2 | 11 Feb 2021 4:49 p.m. PST |
FatherOfAllLogic, it's funny that one of the heroes in this film says almost the same thing during saber hand-to-hand combat (if you mean the second link). In this episode, there is a battle between the Red and White Cossacks during the Civil War. Most of the opponents in the civil war can be easily distinguished by the presence or absence of shoulder straps. For the Bolsheviks, shoulder straps were considered a symbol of class inequality and were abolished. Shoulder straps reappeared in the Red Army only in 1943. |
monk2002uk | 11 Feb 2021 10:20 p.m. PST |
Here is a photo of a German MG08 machine gun on its limber, taken in 1908.
The MG could be fired from the limber. There was an example in the lead up to the Battle of Le Cateau in August 1914. A British infantry battalion was resting in an open field on the forward slope when the advance guard of a German cavalry regiment entered a nearby village. The MG limbers were immediately brought forward and fire was opened on the British whilst the MGs were still mounted on the limbers. Heavy casualties were inflicted on the infantry. Robert |
monk2002uk | 11 Feb 2021 10:39 p.m. PST |
DyeHard, the photo that you posted is an Indian cavalry regiment during the Battle of the Somme in 1916. By this stage of the war, the cavalry MG units had been reorganised. Cavalry squadrons were issued with Hotchkiss automatic rifles (not the Hotchkiss machine guns used by the French). In the photo, you can see a cavalry trooper with a horse that has no mount next to him – just above centre. It is quite likely that the horse is carrying the Hotchkiss light machine gun. Here is a photograph of Indian cavalry troopers operating a Hotchkiss automatic rifle:
Robert |