von Schwartz ver 2 | 04 Feb 2021 6:10 p.m. PST |
I have been searching high and low for a copy of an older set of WW II rules with the associated stats sheets for years. Has anyone ever played or even heard of a WW II rules set called "Angriff". If my memory serves me well, it hasen't for years, the rules came with some pretty lengthy and detailed stats about vehicles and weapons, speeds, armor, weapons available, armor penetration stats and the like. |
Grelber | 04 Feb 2021 10:05 p.m. PST |
I think there are two rule sets called "Angriff" out there. I have one from the '70s, which I haven't looked at for years. The other is from the last decade. Grelber |
pfmodel | 05 Feb 2021 3:04 a.m. PST |
Angriff was a very early set of rules, but i have never been able to get a copy at a reasonable price. If you ever find a copy please let me know, however i don't think they useful as a set of rules to actually play. I cover them briefly in one of my rules video's youtu.be/K8puyPOefo0 |
cfielitz | 05 Feb 2021 7:48 a.m. PST |
The 70s version is what I began playing with back in the 70s in high school. I still have my copy and have no plans to sell it. More of a armor game. The infantry rules left much to be desired. Also had TO & E info. |
Marc33594 | 05 Feb 2021 8:11 a.m. PST |
Havent you asked this before, several times in fact? TMP link And are you confusing Angriff with Tractics? Angriff was one book with tables/charts in it while Tractics had a number of associated sheets. |
BuckeyeBob | 05 Feb 2021 10:24 a.m. PST |
Noble Knight currently has the 1972 and 1984 editions for sale. |
von Schwartz ver 2 | 05 Feb 2021 10:24 a.m. PST |
Marc, guilty as charged, yes I have but I can never seem to find my old posts when I need them. And by the way, thanks for posting that link, now I can refer back to that info. And no, although I am frequently confused about a good many things, I have used both Angriff and Tractics, as I recall Tractics was more like a one-on-one game |
von Schwartz ver 2 | 05 Feb 2021 10:26 a.m. PST |
Grelber – probably the 70s version as that was about the time I was getting into Micro-armor pfmodel – thanks to marc posting that old message from me, I saw that some of you responded and that the current price for the rules set is from $60 USD to $92 USD!!!! My Gawd, that much for an old dog eared copy of some arcane WW II rule set. I may be crazy but I'm not that stupid, yet. |
pfmodel | 05 Feb 2021 1:03 p.m. PST |
I saw that some of you responded and that the current price for the rules set is from $60 USD USD to $92 USD USD!!!! My Gawd, that much for an old dog eared copy of some arcane WW II rule set. I may be crazy but I'm not that stupid, yet. I agree. I would only want them because D. Myers and R.Zimmermann wrote them, who also wrote a great TO&E book which is still very useful to this day. While they were state of the art at the time, they are basically outdated. There are lots of better rules to try at squad or skirmish scale. |
abelp01 | 05 Feb 2021 11:49 p.m. PST |
Off topic for just a sec; Richard Zimmerman was an interesting guy with whom to speak. Tracked him down in '82 to ask him a few questions about his universal wargaming rules, which sadly I lost in, I believe, hurricane Andrew. |
pfmodel | 06 Feb 2021 12:02 a.m. PST |
Wow, R.Zimmermann was one of my wargaming hero's, his TO&E is brilliant and i have found it so useful. It was only much later i realised it was designed to support his rules, which i never purchased. |
Marc33594 | 06 Feb 2021 8:06 a.m. PST |
Prices still remain very high for used copies. Bought mine new. Have 3 of the 5 editions (72, 78, and 82) along with their far east version Banzai. There were issues with the rules, some of which were corrected in later editions, mostly around effective armor since slope wasnt taken into account in armor stats as I remember. Still was a fun set of rules and thought about hauling them out and running at a convention for nostalgia sake. Seem to remember the armor rules working much better than the infantry rules. And, if you want a good cry, the price sticker is still on my 1982 copy. $4.95 USD brand new. By the way a very good write up on the 1982 version here link |
von Schwartz ver 2 | 06 Feb 2021 9:31 a.m. PST |
I agree. I would only want them because D. Myers and R.Zimmermann wrote them, who also wrote a great TO&E book which is still very useful to this day. While they were state of the art at the time, they are basically outdated. There are lots of better rules to try at squad or skirmish scale. THATS what I am looking for, the TO&E lists!!!!! Any copies available? |
von Schwartz ver 2 | 06 Feb 2021 9:33 a.m. PST |
And, if you want a good cry, the price sticker is still on my 1982 copy. $4.95 USD USD brand new. Already curled up in a fetal position under the dining room table. |
pfmodel | 06 Feb 2021 2:24 p.m. PST |
I am uncertain what lists are in the actual rules, but the TO&E's i am aware of are in a separate book, called UNIT ORGANIZATIONS of WORLD WAR II, by D. Myers and R.Zimmermann. I have never looked for them as i purchased a copy back in the 1970's. I expect they are available somewhere, but i also suspect at a high cost. This book only shows a TO&E chart for various divisions with the details of each specific formation added, if present. I incorpoirated this data into my own TO&E document, which you can download from the Kriegsspiel@groups.io site. The specific link is here."link This document gives you an idea of the format used by D. Myers and R.Zimmermann, if its what you need then I would search for the title provided above, but be prepared for a high cost. If you need force mixes for squad scale games, the free GHQ army lists are rather good. They can be downloaded from wargamers vault for free. |
Marc33594 | 06 Feb 2021 3:16 p.m. PST |
Actually I have a first edition and may have a second edition somewhere. And really a fairly reasonable price auction |
pfmodel | 06 Feb 2021 5:55 p.m. PST |
wow, 1st edition, that is rare. I have the 2nd edition. |