Stalkey and Co | 25 Jan 2021 3:25 p.m. PST |
Out of curiosity, I'm wondering why some people title it one way and some the other. Is the difference just semantics to you or do you feel that one title or the other is a better one for the events of 1776 etc? If this discussion was the cause of a previous flame war, I guess I should ask for restraint. If it has already been posted and discussed, do provide a link. thanks! |
Au pas de Charge | 25 Jan 2021 3:30 p.m. PST |
Personally, I refer to it as "The First Boogaloo" |
Brechtel198 | 25 Jan 2021 3:40 p.m. PST |
The American Revolution lasted from 1763-1789, from the end of the French and Indian War and the beginning of the end of the British policy of 'benign neglect' which brought on the Revolution. The War of the Revolution, 1775-1783, was the war itself. |
Colonel Bogey | 25 Jan 2021 4:04 p.m. PST |
Doesn't the choice of "Revolution" or "Independence" depend on which side of The Pond one is on? Brits are likely to see these events as a Revolution, while Americans view it as a fight for Independence (i.e. one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter). Or have I missed the point? |
raylev3 | 25 Jan 2021 4:08 p.m. PST |
Either works….the US did get it's independence and they did set up a VERY different type of government for the time. |
Vintage Wargaming | 25 Jan 2021 4:41 p.m. PST |
It didn't really matter once the Americans had seized the airports |
rmaker | 25 Jan 2021 4:43 p.m. PST |
I believe "American War for Independence" is the preferred usage of the US Army's Center of Military History. In many of the states, there wasn't a "revolution" as such – most of the same people kept running things. Even the grouping of the Colonies into a single nation wasn't a new idea – Franklin had been proposing it for over twenty years (and there is some evidence that Pitt, tired of dealing with so many separate groups, was in favor of it). For that matter, there had been several attempts on the part of the Crown and Parliament, before, during, and after the ECW to enforce some amalgamation. |
Der Alte Fritz | 25 Jan 2021 5:10 p.m. PST |
@ Colonel Bogey: I think it's the other way around: American Revolutionary War or American Revolution in the USA vs. AWI in the UK. I prefer the former, but I use AWI in my blog articles and advertisements because it has wider recognition within the war gaming community. People know what I mean if I use AWI, so I don't go against the tape. |
FusilierDan | 25 Jan 2021 6:11 p.m. PST |
Revolutionary War was the term I used as a youth. Now it depends on whom I talking with. When I type AWI is easier. |
Captain Sensible | 25 Jan 2021 6:19 p.m. PST |
I moved from the US to the UK 20 years ago and heard of the war referred to as the AWI for the first time. Despite my obvious bias, I do think it is a legitimate revolution in that it rejected notions like the divine right of kings to rule, and produced a government based entirely on the ideals of the enlightenment (at least in theory). The UK was of course also a democracy (also at least in theory) at that time, so they don't see it as being particularly different to their own government. What you call it is just a matter of perspective I think and I haven't heard it referred to as the AWI from anyone other than Brits. |
ColCampbell | 25 Jan 2021 6:27 p.m. PST |
I, as others, refer to it both ways. Jim |
John the OFM | 25 Jan 2021 7:06 p.m. PST |
Free at last! Free at last! 😄 Way back in the Mists of Time, I was a bit miffed that there was not a Board that covered … The War of the Ungrateful Colonists. So, I put in a Poll Suggestion to start an American Revolution board. After the usual indeterminate length of time, it came up. In both my Poll Suggestion and the voting, I had to shoot down the "This is well covered by 18th Century Discussion". I had noted that once a period or war got its own Board, contributions escalated. It was voted up, and Dear Editor implemented it. One of the first "complaints" was about the name. One "wise" respondent said that "no reputable historian calls this the American Revolution". I pointed out that I checked just one shelf on my bookshelf of 30 volumes. I noted that 25 of them had "American Revolution" or "Revolutionary War" in the title or subtitle. I noted some of the authors, mighty and revered historians, and that kind of sort of shut down that attack. Or whatever. Me, I use American Revolution, or Revolutionary War when writing it out, and AWI, when looking for a shortcut. I've seen both American Revolution and Revolutionary War in historical books since the 1950s, used in textbooks and historical books. I'm quite comfortable with both. If someone wants to use a different term, I'm OK with that. Just don't demand that I use YOUR term. You're being silly if you do. |
Parzival | 25 Jan 2021 7:22 p.m. PST |
It's the Revolutionary War and/or the American Revolution and the American War of Independence, too. And if somebody across the pond wants to say different, we won, so PFBPPT! () Seriously, I call it the Revolutionary War because that's how I learned it, or alternatively the American Revolution. AWI is a convenient abbreviation in gaming, though the phrase itself is cumbersome. I don't do cumbersome, and don't feel that it really adds any accuracy to the discussion for most circumstances. Yes, a precise breakdown is possible, differing the war from the overall political conflict, etc., etc.. But if the context is clear, then any of the terms are fine. |
Stalkey and Co | 25 Jan 2021 7:57 p.m. PST |
hmm, yeah, I think I grew up calling it the American Revolution, and come to think of it most people just call it The Revolution, not the War of Independence. So I'm guessing that the Rev is American and the AWI is British. Hard to distinguish if one is more or less inaccurate. I would suggest that Revolution has a less than savory term as it implies overthrowing a legitimate government and replacing it with another. American War of Independence seems more respectable. Interesting that we don't call it that! I can't argue that George III and British government was legitimate. Generally, I'm of a mind that had GIII desired it, there would have been no war at all and North America would be some sort of confederation of Canadian like states at this time, with QE2 on the coinage, and a peaceful end to slavery in its past. The more interesting question was did the colonists play to his weaknesses or just stick to their guns [pun intended]? |
John the OFM | 25 Jan 2021 8:13 p.m. PST |
To be honest, "accuracy" is not really the issue. It's common usage that matters. "The Great War" was the name until "they" changed it to World War One. Both are "accurate". |
Bill N | 25 Jan 2021 8:29 p.m. PST |
Its just a name. If we called it "Sam's War" it wouldn't change anything. The same number of people would have died and the outcome of the battles and the war would have been the same. The name is simply a way to communicate what conflict we are talking about. AWI seems to be the convention here, so that is what I use. At least with this conflict the list of names is short. My list of names for the conflict of 1861-65 is much longer. |
Old Contemptible | 25 Jan 2021 8:59 p.m. PST |
Doesn't the choice of "Revolution" or "Independence" depend on which side of The Pond one is on?Brits are likely to see these events as a Revolution, while Americans view it as a fight for Independence (i.e. one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter). Or have I missed the point? Actually I think it is the other way around. Americans like to call it the American Revolution and the Brits like to call it the American War of Independence. I was watching a BBC documentary about the American Revolution last night made in the early 90s and the narrator called it a civil war throughout the first episode. I never heard it call the AWI until I started wargaming it. This all reminds me of The American Civil War versus the War Between the States. I grew up in the South so it was called the War Between the States. Never used the term War of Northern Aggression. |
Old Contemptible | 25 Jan 2021 9:05 p.m. PST |
The other thing about that same BBC documentary was that he never once used the term French and Indian War. It was the Seven Years War in North America. My degree is in History and one of my professors in college called it that. So that is what I started calling it. I think Seven Years in North America is more accurate. But most people don't know what you're talking about. FIW is much more common and easier. |
Old Contemptible | 25 Jan 2021 9:16 p.m. PST |
Revolutionary War never worked for me. Which Revolutionary War? There are a lot of them. |
John the OFM | 25 Jan 2021 9:39 p.m. PST |
Ours. |
Bill N | 25 Jan 2021 10:09 p.m. PST |
The other thing about that same BBC documentary was that he never once used the term French and Indian War. It was the Seven Years War in North America. My degree is in History and one of my professors in college called it that. So that is what I started calling it. I think Seven Years in North America is more accurate. But most people don't know what you're talking about. FIW is much more common and easier. The problem with that is that there was fighting in North America long before things heated up in Europe. There would almost certainly have been a war between France and Britain's colonies in North America even if the European states hadn't decided to go to war. |
John the OFM | 25 Jan 2021 10:41 p.m. PST |
I see this is a Poll Suggestion. We had one of those way back when. It doesn't really matter what the poll results are. I will continue to call it what I always have. I've never considered TMP polls to be binding. The thing about the French and Indian Wars is that it didn't matter if a Treaty settled things in Europe. Father le Loutre's War filled in the gap between the one that ended in 1748 and the official beginning of the FIW. Or SYW in North America. And Pontiac's War came on right after the FIW ended. And the Treaty of Paris certainly didn't end fighting after 1783. |
Der Alte Fritz | 25 Jan 2021 10:44 p.m. PST |
Like JOFM, I looked at my bookshelf and could not find a single title with the AWI name. In grade school we were taught to call it the American Revolution or the Revolutionary War. The National Park Service uses the same terminology. I'd argue that it should be what the local people in the country call it. For example, Westerners no longer call the capital of China Peking, but rather Beijing. It serves no point to argue over whether it was a Revolution, a civil war, a war of independence, etc because that has nothing to do with what Americans call the episode, which is American Revolution and derivative names. That said, nobody is going to change their mind over what to call it, so AR or AWI, it's your choice, and I support your right to call it whatever you want. |
Old Contemptible | 25 Jan 2021 11:54 p.m. PST |
The problem with that is that there was fighting in North America long before things heated up in Europe. You are right about that. The SYW started in North America and spread to become a global conflict. Non other than George Washington who fired the first shot. North America was theater in a global conflict. "The Battle of Fort Necessity (also called the Battle of the Great Meadows) took place on July 3, 1754, in what is now Farmington in Fayette County, Pennsylvania. The engagement, along with the May 28 skirmish known as the Battle of Jumonville Glen, was George Washington's first military experience and the only surrender of his military career. The Battle of Fort Necessity began the French and Indian War, which later spiraled into the global conflict known as the Seven Years' War." The SYW in North America. |
Big Red | 26 Jan 2021 5:43 a.m. PST |
"It serves no point to argue over whether it was a Revolution, a civil war, a war of independence, etc …" But wait, y'all are right. It was all of the above and more including things like smuggling, tax evasion, enlightened government, a very limited interpretation of equality, resentment of authority which was often short sided and well authoritarian. And much more that I can't even articulate. A war by any other name … |
doc mcb | 26 Jan 2021 6:27 a.m. PST |
We've done this. But, again, it WAS a revolutionary conflict in which political mobilization was as important as military. The militia was the main instrument of that. And the war started in April 75 and Independence was declared in July 76. So the "War for Independence" for its first year-and-some was about something other than independence. |
USAFpilot | 26 Jan 2021 8:16 a.m. PST |
A rose by any other name… |
rmaker | 26 Jan 2021 11:38 a.m. PST |
it rejected notions like the divine right of kings to rule Britain had already rejected that idea in 1688 and before. The Stuarts were just too dumb to realize it. |
Frederick | 26 Jan 2021 11:55 a.m. PST |
How about the War of Rebellion Against The Righteous King? Just sayin' Seriously we only every called it the American Revolution or American Revolutionary War |
Rudysnelson | 26 Jan 2021 12:32 p.m. PST |
I like to use AmRev when writing posts. It is quick. |
Bob the Temple Builder | 26 Jan 2021 12:41 p.m. PST |
Wasn't it a rebellion against the existing form of government that was – in part – also a civil war between those in revolt and those who supported the status quo? |
Parzival | 26 Jan 2021 12:45 p.m. PST |
While England was a democracy (within certain limits— not for women, slaves, or those without property), the growing British Empire was not. No American had any voice in Parliament, and for many of the colonies, their Governor was picked by the King, so the citizenry had no say in those authorities either. Thus, the only representative a colony had who stood before the King was loyal to, accountable to, and dependent upon the King! Rather understandable that the Americans would not be happy about that state of affairs. The Revolution was not about tax evasion or smuggling— the latter was about tax evasion, but in order for there to be tax evasion there must first be a tax to evade— nobody smuggles anything if it's just as profitable to sell it openly. The tax issue really wasn't about the tax itself— it was about not having any say about the tax. It doesn't matter if someone can argue the tax was "reasonable" or even "necessary," any more than it would be for you if your neighbors started coming into your home and taking your stuff because they were hungry and had all agreed they could do so. You should have a say in the matter, not be forced to be silent, even if you are wrong. The Patriots didn't chant about not liking the tax (even if they didn't), they chanted "No Taxation Without Representation—" with the last two words far more important than the first two. Even when the taxes were repealed, the argument continued, because the representation continued to be denied. Thus, the resistance to authoritarianism was not a resistance to government or even the concept of government authority— it was resistance to authority which had no accountability to the governed! The Americans very rightly noted that while they were subjects of the King and by right British citizens, the were not afforded the full rights that status should have granted. While certainly hostility to the king and the very concept of monarchy was rising (and came full force with the war), it was still an open question as to exactly what sort of government the United States would adopt if victory were achieved— and even after it was achieved. The United States might well have simply adopted a parliamentary monarchy of its own, with a new King George (Washington), and even had it largely accepted. The American Revolution, however, was to reject that concept entirely in favor of something new to the world— a nation built not on authoritarian roots and traditions, but on law itself— law derived from the people, with authority fully accountable to the people, and not any established authority of unquestioned permanence. There were to be no rulers in America save the people themselves… and that was astonishingly new, and the greatest Revolution of them all. |
Cerdic | 26 Jan 2021 12:48 p.m. PST |
In Britain it's nearly always referred to as the AWI. Not that it comes up that often! (Sorry guys…) Either works though, doesn't it. There was a revolt against the existing authority and then there was a war about it… |
Bill N | 26 Jan 2021 1:35 p.m. PST |
I'll bet its also July 4th and not the Fourth of July too Cerdic. |
Stalkey and Co | 26 Jan 2021 2:11 p.m. PST |
"It was all of the above and more including things like smuggling, tax evasion, enlightened government, a very limited interpretation of equality, resentment of authority which was often short sided and well authoritarian. And much more that I can't even articulate." I'll settle for "The Inarticulable War of Resenting Rightful Authority", or "IWRRA". NICE JOB! |
Demosthenes Of Athens | 26 Jan 2021 2:49 p.m. PST |
Pure speculation here but the 1st Article of the Treaty of Paris see it as independence, at least from the British perspective: "His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and Independent States …." |
Augustus | 26 Jan 2021 3:02 p.m. PST |
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Brechtel198 | 26 Jan 2021 4:27 p.m. PST |
While England was a democracy… England was not a democracy…There weren't any in North America and Europe through at least the Napoleonic period. |
gisbygeo | 26 Jan 2021 5:57 p.m. PST |
The Americans won one, the Brtish lost the other. |
John the OFM | 26 Jan 2021 6:17 p.m. PST |
People have a strange idea of what "democracy" means. When you're right, Kevin, I got yer back! You are not "ludicrous in the extreme" here. |
doc mcb | 26 Jan 2021 8:54 p.m. PST |
Democracy is hard to define, but yes, America was a DEFERENTIAL society until well after 1800. Most white men owned some land and could vote (in VA at least) but they always voted for one of two gentry running. Ordinary farmers didn't want someone like themselves as representative; they wanted someone BETTER than themselves, somebody educated who understood the great world. That meant the planter class. When the planters screwed up the ordinary voters would toss them out and replace them with some other educated gentleman. |
John the OFM | 26 Jan 2021 8:57 p.m. PST |
That's funny, doc. |
Zephyr1 | 26 Jan 2021 10:12 p.m. PST |
I may have missed it, but what did they call it way back when…? ;-) |
Jeffers | 27 Jan 2021 12:23 a.m. PST |
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42flanker | 27 Jan 2021 5:12 a.m. PST |
+1 gisbygeo 'American War of Independence' has purchase in Britain because we'uns are looking back across the Atlantic at you'uns, as we are when we say 'American Civil War.' Both would seem slightly odd phraseology, to me, in a US context. 'The War of Independence' or 'The Civil War' have more of a cosy homestead ownership, but are of course a matter of personal preference, taste, judgement, perspective, etc. |
doc mcb | 27 Jan 2021 5:35 a.m. PST |
John, yes, thanks, but it is also the simple truth, a standard part of my lectures. |
Parzival | 27 Jan 2021 8:00 a.m. PST |
"Aggressive Tax Evasion" is a term used by people who want to deny what the tax argument was really about, which was lack of say in one's governance. The colonists already knew how to largely avoid the taxes, and could have comfortably done so without any war. If one pays attention to the actual history one sees that the war didn't start because of taxes. The taxes got passed, complained about, evaded, and repealed. No war. No direct or open rebellion against the King, either. Unrest against the King's appointed (and unaccountable) officials, yes. But no rebellion. The King's troops show up, which provoked the rather obvious reaction— "Why are there armed soldiers in my town? Why are they ordered to face us? We fought for the King in the last war!" Indignation and even a riot, but no war. And then the troops marched to take away the citizens' abilities to defend themselves from aggression— just twelve years after the last war threatened those same citizens, and they had to wind up being their own protection. That's when the war started. The American Revolution, and the Revolutionary War, was never about taxes. It was about rights. 1. The right to have a say in one's laws and governance (including taxes). 2. The right to be secure from government threat and abuse of power. 3. The right to defend oneself and one's community. 4. The right to petition the government for grievances. 5. The right to speak one's mind or publish one's thoughts without being subject to censorship or authoritarian abuse. (The Stamp Act wasn't just a simple tax. It was a deliberate attempt to muzzle American newspapers and pamphleteers by conveniently taxing what they published, in hopes of making it too expensive to distribute provocative ideas— that is why to this day in many US states there is no sales tax charged on newspapers.) 6. The right to believe and worship as one wished, and not to have those beliefs be placed under restriction by the government or anyone else. "Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it."— Santayana. "Nobody reads Santayana anymore."— Lt. Cmdr. Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5 |
Au pas de Charge | 27 Jan 2021 8:58 a.m. PST |
Ordinary farmers didn't want someone like themselves as representative; they wanted someone BETTER than themselves, somebody educated who understood the great world. A good rule of thumb and we saw the consequences when that got forgotten.
While England was a democracy Calling Cliff Clavin. And let me see, Cornwallis, Howe and George III were fighting for the little guy? Those crazy, selfless, lovable mugs. |
Jeffers | 27 Jan 2021 9:12 a.m. PST |
Parzival – It wasn't a serious comment….😉 For the OP, AWI for short but Revolutionary War when I have time to type longer words or want to sound intellectual. Neither of which I'm particularly good at. |
Mike the Hun | 27 Jan 2021 1:18 p.m. PST |
AWI for me, as been taught in school way back in Germany. Independence sounds more noble a cause … that has absolute, nothing to do with my contemporary residence. ;) |