Tango01 | 14 Jan 2021 10:24 p.m. PST |
Interesting What if… link Amicalement Armand |
Rudysnelson | 14 Jan 2021 10:29 p.m. PST |
Never a consideration. The decision for the Soviet have Berlin was made at a political conference. The Allies needed Soviet muscle against the Japanese in China. Nor did the West want to suffer the expected casualties of an assault on Berlin. So not a chance. |
Bunkermeister | 14 Jan 2021 11:14 p.m. PST |
Not going to happen. We could have there were plans to do so, but the politics said no. We would not have had as many casualties as the Soviets because troops would have been more willing to surrender, but since we planned on giving half of it back it seemed pointless to take it all. Bunkermeister |
Tango01 | 15 Jan 2021 12:18 a.m. PST |
It was always interesting for me to guess what would have happened to Hitler if the American Armored Divisions had advanced on Berlin … would he have stayed in his Bunker until the end? … or would he have tried to escape flying with a Torch Plane? … above all … the defenders of Berlin … would they have fought as fiercely as against the Russians? … or would they have declared Berlin an Open City?…avoiding hundreds of thousands of victims? … at that point EVERYONE knew that the War was lost … Amicalement Armand
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Wackmole9 | 15 Jan 2021 7:27 a.m. PST |
But you forget. The US state Department released the post war plan for turning Germany into a agricultural society with no Industry. It lead to a hardening of German resistance. |
Legion 4 | 15 Jan 2021 8:01 a.m. PST |
With the losses and horrors of the Battle of Berlin, IMO it was better the USSR capture it. Almost as payback for what the Nazi did to the Russians, etc. However, if the US, UK, etc., had captured it, the massive amounts of war crimes including rape, etc., would not have happened. I'm pretty sure that is a very safe assumption … |
Grelber | 15 Jan 2021 9:49 a.m. PST |
Of course, Eisenhower and the Western allies didn't even try, but were there significant German forces between them and Berlin? If not, would a Western attack have drawn off German forces, making things easier for the Russians? Or might the Germans deliberately have left the route open, hoping to surrender to the British and Americans, or maybe cause an accidental confrontation between East and West? Grelber |
Bill N | 15 Jan 2021 11:55 a.m. PST |
The number of American and British dead would have been much higher, and Germany would still have been partitioned after the war. The scenario that I think is more likely to have altered events would have been the U.S. liberation of Prague. |
Wackmole9 | 15 Jan 2021 12:16 p.m. PST |
The Morgenthau Plan was a proposal to eliminate Germany's ability to wage war following World War II by eliminating its arms industry and removing or destroying other key industries basic to military strength. This included the removal or destruction of all industrial plants and equipment in the Ruhr. It was first proposed by United States Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau Jr. in a 1944 memorandum entitled Suggested Post-Surrender Program for Germany.[1] While the Morgenthau Plan had some influence until July 10, 1947 (adoption of JCS 1779) on Allied planning for the occupation of Germany, it was not adopted. US occupation policies aimed at "industrial disarmament",[2] but contained a number of deliberate "loopholes", limiting any action to short-term military measures and preventing large-scale destruction of mines and industrial plants, giving wide-ranging discretion to the military governor and Morgenthau's opponents at the War Department.[3][4] An investigation by Herbert Hoover concluded the plan would result in up to 25 million Germans starving to death.[5] From 1947, US policies aimed at restoring a "stable and productive Germany" and were soon followed by the Marshall Plan.[3][6] When the Morgenthau Plan was published by the US press in September 1944 it was immediately seized upon by the Nazi Germany government, and used as part of propaganda efforts in the final seven months of the war in Europe which aimed to convince Germans to fight on.[7] |
Oddball | 16 Jan 2021 2:20 p.m. PST |
There would have been a lot less rapes. Not none, just less. |
Legion 4 | 16 Jan 2021 3:01 p.m. PST |
As I said on another thread here. Everything I have read about The Battle of Berlin. Over 90,000 German females were raped. And the Bishop of Berlin had to ask the Pope for special dispensation for abortions. The number German women raped, tortured and murdered is massive as well. And 1000s were sent to Russian work camps as well. I keep hoping this information is wrong … but sadly even if the numbers are overstated it is still too large and brutal. |
Cuprum2 | 16 Jan 2021 8:56 p.m. PST |
It is impossible to speak seriously about these numbers. Information from only two hospitals, and clearly distorted information, was arbitrarily extrapolated by mathematical methods to the entire territory of Germany. By the way, this information included an American soldier among the rapists))) link And now the most delicious thing – hundreds of thousands of German women raped by American soldiers: link |
Col Durnford | 16 Jan 2021 10:00 p.m. PST |
Yes, it was all done by elves and unicorns. Sorry, you left to many people alive to hide this act of hateful revenge. |
Cuprum2 | 16 Jan 2021 10:38 p.m. PST |
Are you saying that American soldiers left their victims alive much less often?))) Read the second link))) There you will learn about your elves and unicorns))) |
deephorse | 17 Jan 2021 3:55 a.m. PST |
And now the most delicious thing – hundreds of thousands of German women raped by American soldiers: You clearly haven't either read or understood what the 'supporting' evidence is in your second link. Go back and read it again, all of it, and then revise your claim of "hundreds of thousands of German women raped by American soldiers". |
Cuprum2 | 17 Jan 2021 7:36 a.m. PST |
I read everything and understood everything perfectly))) It's just that I am surprised by the doublethink in some people that Orwell described so well. When exactly the same methodology for counting raped German women is used in relation to Soviet soldiers, you consider it flawless. But when it comes to allied soldiers, it suddenly turns out that this method is absolutely not scientific))) As opposite concepts can coexist in the same mind? |
Cuprum2 | 17 Jan 2021 8:21 a.m. PST |
Excerpt from Order No. 55 of People's Commissar of Defense I.V. Stalin on February 23, 1942 (on the occasion of the celebration of the anniversary of the creation of the Red Army): "Sometimes they talk in the foreign press that the Red Army has as its goal to exterminate the German people and destroy the German state. This, of course, is stupid nonsense and stupid slander against the Red Army. The Red Army does not and cannot have such idiotic goals. The Red Army has its own aiming to expel the German occupiers from our country and free the Soviet land from the German fascist invaders. It is very likely that the war for the liberation of the Soviet land will lead to the expulsion or destruction of Hitler's clique. We would welcome such an outcome. But it would be ridiculous to equate the Hitler clique with the German people , with the German state The experience of history says that Hitlers come and go, but the German people, and the German state remains. The strength of the Red Army lies, finally, in the fact that it does not and cannot have racial hatred for other peoples, including the German people, that it has been brought up in the spirit of equality of all peoples and races, in the spirit of respect for the rights of other peoples. … The racial theory of the Germans and the practice of racial hatred led to the fact that all freedom-loving peoples became enemies of Nazi Germany.The theory of racial equality in the USSR and the practice of respect for the rights of other peoples led to the fact that all freedom-loving peoples became friends of the Soviet Union. This is the strength of the Red Army. This is also the weakness of the German fascist army". link |
Cuprum2 | 17 Jan 2021 8:45 a.m. PST |
Directive of the Headquarters of the Supreme Command No. 11072 of 20.4.45 The headquarters of the Supreme Command orders: 1. To demand that the troops change their attitude towards the Germans, both towards prisoners of war and the civilian population, and to treat the Germans better. The brutal treatment of the Germans makes them afraid and makes them stubbornly resist, not surrendering. The civilian population, fearing revenge, organized into gangs. This situation is not beneficial to us. A more humane attitude towards the Germans will make it easier for us to conduct military operations on their territory, and will undoubtedly reduce the stubbornness of the Germans in defense. 2. In the regions of Germany to the west of the line: the mouth of the Oder River, the Oder River, up to Furstenberg and further on the river. Neisse (Western) to create a German administration, and to appoint burgomasters of Germans in the cities. Ordinary members of the National Socialist Party, if they are tolerant of the Red Army, should not be touched, but only the leaders should be detained if they did not manage to escape. 3. Improving the attitude towards the Germans should not lead to a decrease in vigilance and to familiarity with the Germans. 11072 Headquarters of the Supreme Command I. Stalin, Antonov. Here are scans of documents: link I will not give orders from fronts, corps and divisions – there are hundreds of them. |
Legion 4 | 17 Jan 2021 9:09 a.m. PST |
Agree with deephorse … I.e. claim of "hundreds of thousands of German women raped by American soldiers". That is so false I can't believe someone would claim it as a fact. And it holds true for all the Western Allies. Very, very, few rapes occurred, by US, UK, French, etc., troops … Sadly if you look it up online … there are some horrible photos and narratives of what happened to German women in Berlin with the USSR's attack and occupation. As in many cases we my never know any real accurate numbers … Regardless … it will massive … IMO … |
deephorse | 17 Jan 2021 11:40 a.m. PST |
Directive of the Headquarters of the Supreme Command No. 11072 of 20.4.45The headquarters of the Supreme Command orders: 1. To demand that the troops change their attitude towards the Germans, both towards prisoners of war and the civilian population, and to treat the Germans better. The brutal treatment of the Germans makes them afraid and makes them stubbornly resist, not surrendering. You do realise that this just destroys the case you are trying to make, don't you? If, on 20 April 1945, Stalin has to order his troops to treat Germans better, and without brutality, then what were these same troops doing to Germans before 20 April? |
Tango01 | 17 Jan 2021 3:37 p.m. PST |
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Legion 4 | 17 Jan 2021 4:41 p.m. PST |
Good point ! It seems some of the old "Cold War Warriors", etc., etc., still accurately IMO, see that "war" is not really over. Just the threat of MAD between the USA and Russia has been reduced in a major way. |
Cuprum2 | 17 Jan 2021 5:59 p.m. PST |
Have you read the link? It contains only a tiny fraction of the memories of the Germans, which describe the terrible violence against women perpetrated by Allied soldiers. I recommend reading the book – there are many more such facts. But I don't know if it was published in English – I couldn't find it. Some people really don't want to destroy the blessed myths that have been created for decades))) Here are the details of the book in German: Gebhardt M. Als die Soldaten kamen. Die Vergewaltigung deutscher Frauen am Ende des Zweiten Weltkriegs — München: DVA, 2015. — ISBN 978-3-421-04633-8. And the second book is a continuation of the study: Gebhardt M. «Wir Kinder der Gewalt. Wie Frauen und Familien bis heute unter den Folgen der Massenvergewaltigungen bei Kriegsende leiden» — München: DVA, 2019. — ISBN 978-3-421-04731-1. On the Internet, you have seen interpretations of just one German study, where the Soviet army is accused of mass rape. Everything else is his retelling. And this edition does not stand up to any scientific criticism. But it came in handy and was very important for creating the image of the enemy during the Cold War (and even now it is very useful). When exactly the same technique is used against allied soldiers, you are not ready to believe it))) |
Cuprum2 | 17 Jan 2021 6:23 p.m. PST |
Did I deny somewhere that there were murders, violence and robberies? There were, and there were relatively many of them, but they did not reach the scale that they took in the creations of Western propaganda. You need to understand what the Soviet soldiers saw on the liberated Soviet territory (15 million civilians were killed, often in the most brutal ways. Most of the Soviet servicemen had someone hurt in their families – parents, children, wives). Naturally, many of them felt a real hatred of the Germans, as the perpetrators of these monstrous crimes. But where did the terrible, all-seeing and all-knowing NKVD suddenly go? Who dared to violate the orders of the dictator and how could the violator go unpunished? Where is your sequence of thought? There are reports from the Soviet military prosecutor's office, there are decisions of military-field courts. During the period from January to March 1945, 4148 officers of the Red Army were convicted, of which about 1800 were convicted of crimes against civilians. 1800 people! Only officers! Most went to the penal battalions, some were shot. Yes, unfortunately, this figure means that the Red Army had at least 1,800 people unworthy to wear its epaulettes. Alas. But at the same time, this means that the judicial-penitentiary system in relation to these people worked in full. This means that the Soviet command actually fought the crimes of its soldiers against German citizens. This means that murderers and rapists did not go unpunished. This means that the Germans could report unworthy actions of individual Soviet servicemen and, moreover, could hope for a response and real participation in solving their problems. And this is already very, very much. |
Legion 4 | 18 Jan 2021 10:26 a.m. PST |
As I said … on this topic and others … the Cold War continues for some. But I stand by my statement that very few Western Allied soldiers committed the war crimes being mentioned here … |
John the OFM | 18 Jan 2021 10:58 a.m. PST |
As for believing what is patently, demonstrably and ridiculously false…. I step back from that, because I would be bringing up POLITICS, and not protected by the flexible "10 year rule". No kind of arithmetic can make 2 months equal 10 years. So I ain't gonna do it. |
John the OFM | 18 Jan 2021 11:06 a.m. PST |
It was always interesting for me to guess what would have happened to Hitler if the American Armored Divisions had advanced on Berlin … would he have stayed in his Bunker until the end? … or would he have tried to escape flying with a Torch Plane? … above all … the defenders of Berlin … would they have fought as fiercely as against the Russians? … or would they have declared Berlin an Open City?…avoiding hundreds of thousands of victims? … at that point EVERYONE knew that the War was lost … Several things. Why just American Armored divisions? No British? And the infantry divisions were just as mobile with all the trucks they had. EVERYONE knew the war was lost? Those whose opinions mattered didn't think so. And if you did think so, it didn't matter. Individuals may have preferred to surrender to the Amis, but nobody in charge did. "Agreements" made between the Soviets and western allies gave a clear path to the Soviets. They definitely wanted it more. It could have sparked a "premature" war between the Soviets and the Good Guys. Cynically, let the Reds take all the casualties and we can mop up after. |
Legion 4 | 18 Jan 2021 3:56 p.m. PST |
Some good points John … But IMO it again comes down to East vs. West. With what is true or what is fiction. I do know where my feelings are on this broad topic. |
newarch | 18 Jan 2021 11:15 p.m. PST |
The Soviet brutality and reprisals against the Germans were a measure of payback in kind for the way Soviets were treated during the German invasion of the Soviet Union. Civilians suffered horrendously during both campaigns, both directly from reprisals and the upheaval of having to flee from their homes. Read Anthony Beevor's books on Stalingrad and Berlin, if you weren't anti-war beforehand it will certainly make you question the worth of it all afterwards. I mean this in the kindest possible way, but US troops were never as invested in either the ETO or PTO in the way that many countries were because US civilian populations and territory were never directly in the firing line. This allowed them to act with a lot more professional detachment, so they were less emotionally invested in seeking revenge against the enemy. Of course this view changed somewhat when Allied troops uncovered evidence of atrocities like the concentration camps. |
Legion 4 | 19 Jan 2021 9:03 a.m. PST |
newarch +1 All very true … |
Cuprum2 | 19 Jan 2021 8:09 p.m. PST |
Cruelty Russian manifestation against the Germans – do not go to any comparison with the atrocity that showed the Germans on the territory of the Slavic states. If you do not believe Russian, ask the Poles))) |
mkenny | 20 Jan 2021 4:42 a.m. PST |
Covered pretty well on AHF a while back link |
Legion 4 | 20 Jan 2021 8:45 a.m. PST |
There is no doubt about the Nazis atrocities were many especially in the East. But I never have heard of the many rapes, etc., committed by US, French, etc. Allied troops, in that link. Albeit some posters on that link do ask some good questions, and refute some of the claims. Which is no surprise … I am not ready to say all those figures are accurate, and possibly overstated. But I don't doubt it occurred. I'm not too surprised about with some partisans/guerillas. There was some hatred between them and the "loyalists", etc., per se. But that certainly does no excuse or justify it. Information like this, if true, only makes the history of the war that much more brutal, heinous, etc. Very sad … very unfortunate … |
Legion 4 | 20 Jan 2021 4:44 p.m. PST |
For more information about Allied War Crimes/Rape, etc. very sobering … I am suspect about the numbers. But rape is rape. 1 is too much … link |