Tango01 | 14 Jan 2021 9:49 p.m. PST |
"Beneath the waves of the Pacific Ocean and under the soil of the lands which border it lies one of the starkest reminders of Japanese imperialism: the remains of some one million soldiers, sailors, marines, and airmen of Imperial Japan's armed forces who perished in World War II. Perhaps half of them are potentially recoverable. By comparison the United States has some 72,000 unrecovered service members from World War II in all theaters of the conflict combined, with about 26,000 deemed recoverable by the Defense POW/MIA Accounting Agency (DPAA). Tens of thousands of these nearly forgotten Japanese dead had once been prisoners of war in Soviet captivity, seized in the global conflict's final weeks. On August 8, 1945, Joseph Stalin, keeping his promise to Franklin D. Roosevelt and Winston Churchill at Yalta the previous February to intervene 90 days after Germany surrendered, declared war on Japan. Right into early August, Japanese officials clung to the hope that the Soviets might negotiate a peace deal with the Western Allies. That hope dissipated in the lightning advance of the Red Army launched on August 9…"
Full text here link Amicalement Armand
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Cuprum2 | 14 Jan 2021 11:10 p.m. PST |
Again the horrors of Stalin's prisoner of war camps))) But when you read the real memories of the Japanese prisoners, then, in fact, there are no terrible crimes. There are the usual difficulties of life in captivity, and even in a war-ravaged country, in which its inhabitants themselves starve and need. Compare with what American soldiers experienced in Japanese captivity, for example. |
Tango01 | 15 Jan 2021 12:07 a.m. PST |
So… we compare very bad with horribly bad…? Japanese horrible captivity were not only for American soldiers… it was also for any prisioner soldier who was enemy of the Japan Empire… It would be interesting to compare that Russian "horror" with the behavior about it… of the rest of the Allies who fought against the Axis … Because if it is to justify with … Hey! … there were people much more bad than us … imho the comment would not be valid.. While it is known that all POWs suffered a lot … if we categorize the behavior carried out by the WW2 participants … there were nations that clearly stood out for that extreme and unnecessary cruelty … and it is evident that fortunately … there were regimes that at least tried to mitigate the suffering of their prisoners of war … Sorry, but I think that the Russians did not fall into that category … even with those poor Russian soldiers who had to surrender at the beginning of the war…after suffering the horrible conditions established by the Germans … upon being recovered … we know that they also suffered something worse at the hands of their own fellow citizens … Amicalement Armand
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Choctaw | 15 Jan 2021 7:26 a.m. PST |
The wages of war. Oh well. |
Legion 4 | 15 Jan 2021 7:51 a.m. PST |
That is one of the many reasons, "War is Hell" … I'd suspect. Fortunately, some EPWs were treated better by some nations that others. E.g. German POWs were treated better than the Black Soldiers in the Army in many cases. Regardless, those that fell into the Western Allies, e.g. USA's, UK's, etc., hands generally did pretty well. And many made it back home. So… we compare very bad with horribly bad…?Japanese horrible captivity were not only for American soldiers… it was also for any prisioner soldier who was enemy of the Japan Empire… It would be interesting to compare that Russian "horror" with the behavior about it… of the rest of the Allies who fought against the Axis … I guess it is a case of, " All animals are equal … some are just more equal than others.", G. Orwell … [I find myself quoting Orwell, these days much more frequently than before …] |
Cuprum2 | 15 Jan 2021 8:42 a.m. PST |
My topic about almost a million deaths of German prisoners in American and French camps was deleted. But the fact itself has not gone away from this and is still waiting for its researchers))) But the fact that Orwell is as relevant as ever is now beyond doubt))) Big Brother is always on the alert))) And any thoughtcrime will be suppressed))) Memoirs of the American soldier Martin Brech: link |
advocate | 15 Jan 2021 11:28 a.m. PST |
Not just Japanese prisoners: link I can't answer to Martin Brech, but the book which quoted him, which you referenced in your earlier post is comprehensively refuted here link Your previous post might have been deleted as the link suggested as further reading "Do The Sonderkommandos Prove A Holocaust or Holohoax?". Hardly an inspiring title. |
Wolfhag | 15 Jan 2021 12:44 p.m. PST |
I recall reading a WWII account of Germans on the West Front. The WWI veterans told them if they needed to surrender, do it to the Americans. Wolfhag |
Legion 4 | 15 Jan 2021 3:15 p.m. PST |
My topic about almost a million deaths of German prisoners in American and French camps was deleted. But the fact itself has not gone away from this and is still waiting for its researchers))) I was aware of it, IIRC I saw it on documentary on the History Channel or NATGEO, etc. ? Yes those we figures quoted. The documentary was called, something like After WWII or After Hitler. It really is not that surprising … The War brought out the worse of some and the best in others. But everything I have read about The Battle of Berlin. Over 90,000 German females were raped. And the Bishop of Berlin had to get the Pope for special dispensation for abortions. The number German women raped, tortured and murder is massive as well. We have to learn from such horror. Even is the figures are overstated. Having read links posted by Cuprum and advocate … Seems to me based on everything I know from my study of history. I'll give the Americans the benefit of the doubt. Albeit I am biased … I will admit. But as Wolf posted … most wanted to surrender to the Americans than the USSR. Like I said the USSR troops were looking for payback. After what the Germans did to their country and countrymen. However, what happened to the US and UK soldiers that the USSR liberated from German POW Camps. Who then died in Russian Gulags, etc., is even more heinous being that the US, UK, and USSR were Allies. I can't believe this was covered up ? I'll admit I've heard stories like this before. There is no excuse for this. Save for Stalin's madness, etc., is all I can think of. Inexcusable ! It seems more & more having Stalin as an "ally" was truly a deal with the devil. The US, UK. etc. should never have covered this up. I hope the link is wrong. But I doubt it. We would hear in the US Army never get captured by the Communist. E.g. USSR, North Korea, China, East Germany, let's not forget Vietnam, etc., etc. Let's hope numbers like these from all sources are overstated, regardless the huge numbers are just horrible. Almost unbelievable … This can't ever happen again … But the fact that Orwell is as relevant as ever is now beyond doubt))) Couldn't agree more … I never thought I'd see the things that occurred over that past few weeks let alone the past few years. 'nuff .. said … |
Cuprum2 | 15 Jan 2021 5:57 p.m. PST |
Did the prisoners work in the United States during the same period? Everyone should work in a socialist society – it would be strange that a criminal lives at the expense of the means that respectable citizens provide him at the expense of their own taxes. GULAG is an abbreviation that stands for: General Administration of Camps. This is just a part of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, in charge of the country's penitentiary system. It does not carry any special ominous meaning. Article 58-3 of the Penal Code, referred to in the link. "Relations with a foreign state or its individual representatives for counterrevolutionary purposes, as well as contributing in any way to a foreign state that is in a state of war with the USSR or is fighting against it by means of intervention or blockade, entail social protection measures .. . " I wonder if US citizens will be punished for contacts with representatives of Iran in order to change the existing social structure in the US? The vast majority of Soviet prisoners after the war were sent home, except for those who collaborated with the Nazis. Regarding the prisoner of war camps: at the end of 1941. By order of the People's Commissar of Defense No. 0521, a system of FILTER camps was created to check those released from captivity. The following categories of citizens are sent there for verification: 1st – former prisoners of war and soldiers of the Red Army who were surrounded; 2nd rank-and-file police officers, village heads and other civilians suspected of treasonous activities (we are talking about persons who are in the service of the occupying German authorities); 3rd – civilians of military age who lived in the territory occupied by the enemy (check before being drafted into the Red Army). The check took place for a maximum of three months. This is not a punishment! After passing through it, 95% of the contingent was released without any consequences. Either an idiot or a liar can call it repression. Secret Order of the NKVD of the USSR No. 00447 … "The repressed persons included: - Former kulaks who returned after serving their sentence or escaped from camps and labor settlements; hiding from dispossession and convicted of anti-Soviet activities. - Former kulaks and socially dangerous elements who were in insurgent, fascist, terrorist and bandit formations. - Members of anti-Soviet parties, re-emigrants hiding from repression, fleeing from places of detention and leading active anti-Soviet activities. - Members of the Cossack and White Guard organizations. - The most active anti-Soviet elements from the former kulaks, punishers, bandits, whites, sectarian activists, clergymen and others who are held in prisons, camps, labor settlements and colonies. - Criminals, as well as criminals who are in custody, but whose personal cases have not yet been reviewed by the judicial authorities. - Criminals who are in camps and labor settlements and conduct criminal activities there. Where here "This category of offenses included treasonous acts such as illness or lack of work"? Another lie. I know that during the Great Terror these laws were violated many times and a large number of innocent people suffered. But this was an arbitrariness, and for this the leadership of the NKVD suffered a very serious punishment. Previously, they would say that this article is not worth the paper on which it is written … This is the usual anti-Russian propaganda. So to believe such a "researcher" is the same as to believe in the "Flying Macaroni Monster"))) But this is your right. You may not believe Martin Brech. Here are just dozens, if not hundreds of such memories. Are they all crazy and liars? And someone refuted their words? Let us leave out the personality of the author who collected these memories and his research methodology. |
advocate | 16 Jan 2021 3:22 a.m. PST |
Cuprum2, a valiant defense of the Gulags. If you can accept the official line about them, rather than the accounts of, say, Alexander Solzynitzen (apologies for the spelling), then accept the figures from the USA and Germany. But it doesn't account for the British and Americans imprisoned for years by the Soviets. For now, though, I'll stop trying to sink this particular rubber duck. |
uglyfatbloke | 16 Jan 2021 7:01 a.m. PST |
The Bacque book 'Other Losses' is a classic of number-fiddling to justify a conclusion. |
Cuprum2 | 16 Jan 2021 10:48 a.m. PST |
I am not defending the GULAG. And I do not deny the significant number of innocent victims. I'm just saying that the writings of the journalist, you are talking about, are very relative relationship to reality))) He's just lying in every line that's what I've shown. What for? Solzhenitsyn wrote fiction. It has nothing to do with real numbers. And how could an ordinary prisoner know the real numbers? After the archives of the NKVD were opened and research was carried out by real scientists, it is impossible to speak seriously about these figures. If you are interested in real numbers, read Zemskov's books. link Where can you find the names of missing Americans and Britons? What efforts were made by the governments of these countries to search for their citizens? Is there anything other than the book you are linking to? This book is simply stupid to consider seriously this opus is on a par with the Loch Ness monster, Bigfoot and other similar "sensations"))) If you do not believe the research of James Bacque, although there are published memoirs of specific people, the data about which are fully known who were directly related to the events described, and not somewhere, from someone and something they once heard … this is definitely not a collection of rumors, why should you trust your "rubber duck" based on conspiracy theories, rumors and gossip? You can believe in anything, it is your right. But I need irrefutable proof. Facts. Everything else is rubbish. |
Cuprum2 | 16 Jan 2021 11:24 a.m. PST |
Here are all your sensations with Americans in Soviet prisons: link According to the laws of the USSR, any foreigner who illegally and deliberately violated the airspace of the USSR for military or intelligence purposes was a criminal and was unequivocally sentenced to prison. The concealment of information about them is most likely associated with the secret exchange of American spies for Soviet ones – hence the reluctance of state services to discuss and publish these issues. And there is no need for speculation. But you won't earn much by publishing this knowledge – but you can earn a lot on sensational rumors and gossip))) |
Tango01 | 16 Jan 2021 12:06 p.m. PST |
Like Greenpeace guys and girls?…. Amicalement Armand
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Legion 4 | 16 Jan 2021 2:57 p.m. PST |
I knew about most of those incidents in the link Cuprum, which were during the Cold War … So you are saying those links posted before are incorrect? That any US, UK, etc., troops that were POWs in German camps during WWII That were liberated by the USSR were not sent to gulags, etc. ? Were they sent home ? I hope that was the case and not 20,000 + US, UK, etc., died in Russian camps during WWII after being liberated from German POW Camps by the USSR ? |
Cuprum2 | 16 Jan 2021 9:06 p.m. PST |
And what evidence is there that thousands of Allied soldiers ended up in Soviet camps? I have not seen such evidence yet. If someone puts forward a thesis – he must provide evidence. Where are they? It would be better if the guys and girls from Greenpeace were working on oil rigs at home, for example, in the Gulf of Mexico – perhaps there would not have been a major environmental disaster. |
Cuprum2 | 17 Jan 2021 8:18 a.m. PST |
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Legion 4 | 17 Jan 2021 9:18 a.m. PST |
And what evidence is there that thousands of Allied soldiers ended up in Soviet camps? I have not seen such evidence yet. If someone puts forward a thesis he must provide evidence. Where are they? IMO these links advocate already posted makes it a little clearer what happened … Frankly I don't think we ever will know the real numbers. But it would be high … link
link
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Tango01 | 17 Jan 2021 3:50 p.m. PST |
The Greenpeace people can go they wherever they please … what their actions and subsequent detention did serve us well … is knowing Russia's laws and legal practices inside out … a nice place to end up in prison … come on Cuprun 2! … What do you want to sell us? … everyone knows that the Soviet Union is the most crystalline mirror of Nazi Germany if it had won WW2…! Amicalement Armand |
Cuprum2 | 17 Jan 2021 6:45 p.m. PST |
You see, we all lived in the state of the Cold War for a long time. And now it actually continues. This means that the propaganda machines are working at full capacity on both sides. It is a fact. Therefore, one can only believe unconditionally proven facts. Well, of course, if you are interested in reality, and not just a convenient picture of an illusory world built for you and an image of an enemy drawn for you. |
Cuprum2 | 17 Jan 2021 6:52 p.m. PST |
To be honest, I don't care about Greenpeace. But as far as I remember, there were several high-profile cases when it turned out that this organization was taking money from one company in order to create problems for another company. So when do they act in the interests of humanity, and when in selfish interests? I find it difficult to distinguish))) As for the Soviet Union, I lived there at a fully conscious age, and I don't see anything particularly horrible in it. And who authorized you to speak on behalf of "everyone"?))) |
Tango01 | 17 Jan 2021 10:51 p.m. PST |
I'm pretty sure that a lot of germans who lived "a fully conscious age" in WW2 also "don't see anything particularly horrible"… (smile) But..hey!… if Russia is the paradise of Human Rights… well for you!… congrats for the good life!… (smile)
Amicalement Armand |
Cuprum2 | 18 Jan 2021 3:47 a.m. PST |
Germans? I think they definitely didn't like it when they were bombed and their cities were stormed, which was a direct consequence of their actions. Russia is far from a human rights paradise. However, the United States is also not very similar to him))) And in the 1940s, too, was far from paradise. You can ask African Americans – they will tell you more about this))) |
Legion 4 | 18 Jan 2021 10:19 a.m. PST |
You see, we all lived in the state of the Cold War for a long time. And now it actually continues. This means that the propaganda machines are working at full capacity on both sides. It is a fact. I can certainly can see with that. However, in the USA only old Cold War Warriors, politicians, historians, etc., really consider Putin's Russia a significant threat. However, yet it still is somewhat, but has been replaced by the PRC/CCP as #1. And you must have heard about the Russian probes in the US Gov't. etc., where some touted the outgoing POTUS was a Russian agent and in Putin's pocket, etc. And as we know that was more of a "witch hunt". With no real basis in truth. With much time & money wasted … Tom Clancy wouldn't of even come up with such a scenario … You can ask African Americans they will tell you more about this))) That has been a continuing situation that has a way to go to improve, sadly … For many African-Americans. |
Tango01 | 18 Jan 2021 12:44 p.m. PST |
Another day in Paradise… (smile) link
Amicalement Armand |
Cuprum2 | 18 Jan 2021 5:07 p.m. PST |
I hope the Ministry of Truth has approved your message)))
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Tango01 | 18 Jan 2021 10:58 p.m. PST |
Is this the Supreme Court of Russia…? (smile) Amicalement Armand
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Legion 4 | 19 Jan 2021 9:06 a.m. PST |
I do like that photo … sadly a bit of truth there … Again Very Orwellian ! I'd post it on Facebook, but I'm sure I'd get banned … so much for the 1st Amendment … |
deephorse | 19 Jan 2021 10:51 a.m. PST |
I'd post it on Facebook, but I'm sure I'd get banned … so much for the 1st Amendment … Which does not apply to private companies. But I'm sure you know that. |
Cuprum2 | 19 Jan 2021 8:21 p.m. PST |
What are you, Tango01. These people have a very indirect relationship to Russia. These people decide what thoughts should be not in mine, but in your head))) deephorse Exactly the same censorship as in China, but only on outsourcing))) |
Legion 4 | 20 Jan 2021 9:29 a.m. PST |
Which does not apply to private companies. But I'm sure you know that. I do know that … but my comment was a bit of hyperbole, with everything that is currently going on in my homeland. You know that, yes ? Regardless, posting it on FB would certainly get me banned, 1st Amendment or anything else not withstanding. I'm sure you know that as well … There is also a conversation going on in the USA about private companies banning and deleting people & comments that don't agree with the company's beliefs, etc. I'm not sure where that is going to end up. But again, you must watch the news, and of course to know that as well … I'd imagine ? But just in case you missed that link link link link You seem to know a lot about me & my posts ? What should I have for lunch ? You must already know ! |
Tango01 | 20 Jan 2021 12:45 p.m. PST |
I'm kidding Cuprum2…. (smile) Amicalement Armand
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Legion 4 | 20 Jan 2021 4:17 p.m. PST |
deephorse … no insights ? After reading the links ? |