"Prussians 1815" Topic

Hi I am restarting an 1815 project in 5mm adler figures and would like to see if anyone can confirm the following information I found on the link web site.

It is in regards to flags carried. I am using a figure ratio of 1/60 so will not use two flags per battalion. My idea is to use the Leib flag for 1st battalion then Retirierfahne for the 2nd battalion. I am pretty sure the fusilier battalion did not carry any flags.

Now to the information in the above web site. It states "1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th (Leib), 9th, 10, 11th and 12th Infantry Regiment.
These were the 12 'old' regiments, solid, well trained and well dressed. Only these regiments carried flags."

Can anyone confirm this that only these regiments carried flags?
Thanks

If I'm not mistaken the 12th wasn't an 'old' regiment. Those were 1 to 11 with the total of twelve made up by the previously-unnumbered Leib. The 12th was thus a Reserve regiment (I think).

Re the flags question Haythornthwaite (Uniforms of Waterloo) agrees no fusilier battalion, ex-Reserve or Landwehr flags, but reckons there were a lot of unofficial ones among the last two.

Something I've never really understood is why flags at all. If they had a worthwhile utility as is often claimed, tactical, recognitionwise or whatever, you'd think they'd be equally useful to everyone so everyone would have had one. This is not of course the case, so presumably they either weren't in fact useful, or they were and certain units were deliberately handicapped in not being allowed one. Neither makes a lot of sense as this implies that either everybody or nobody should have had one, which wasn't so.

Something I've never really understood is why flags at all. If they had a worthwhile utility as is often claimed, tactical, recognitionwise or whatever, you'd think they'd be equally useful to everyone so everyone would have had one. This is not of course the case, so presumably they either weren't in fact useful, or they were and certain units were deliberately handicapped in not being allowed one. Neither makes a lot of sense as this implies that either everybody or nobody should have had one, which wasn't so.

I suppose the logic is that that they were of at least marginal use, but they were more damaging if lost (Napoleon's behaviour around eagles and standards would support this). Thus units which were unlikely to lose them kept them, and the units which were more likely to lose them didn't.

The Prussian king ordered on 10 May 1811 that each musketeer battalion should carry only one flag in the field. No flags for the fusileer battalions before 1815.

Until 1st July 1813 (formation of the Brandenburgisches Infanterie-Regiment and the 12 reserve regiments), the foot guard regiment ranked as the 8th infantry regiment. The numbers identified the anciennity of the regiments, but became not part of the regimental names before November 1816.

On 1st July 1813, the foot guard regiment was taken out of the anciennity within the line, the 9th to 12th infantry regiments stepped up by one (for example, the Leib-Infanterie-Regment, which had hitherto taken the 9th place, received the 8th place, but the regimental name did not change, as the number was not part of it). The Brandenburgisches Infanterie-Regiment was newly formed from reserve battalion and took the number 12 (which was not part of the regimental name), and at the same time the corresponding 1st to 12th reserve regiments were formed.

In 1815, all three battalions of the two guard regiments and the two grenadier regiments (most of the latter carried a Leib flag from their original regiments, I believe), and the musketeer battalions of ten of the first eleven line regiments carried flags.

The other regiments and battalions received their flags as late as after the 1815 campaign. Amongst them the 1st Silesian infantry regiment (which changed its numbering, but not its name, from 11 to 10 on 1st July 1813), which had lost its two flags at Etoges in 1814.

@ Whirlwind

That hypothesis makes good sense – until we remember that Britain handed out flags to volunteer and yeomanry units!

Perhaps it's a mistake to seek a pattern…

If you want to have some sound info on the Prussian army, Peter Hofschröer's Ospreys are fairly good, as he used mainly German sources.

And I wrote a chapter on the organisation of the Prussian army 1804 to 1815, explaining most mysteries, here:

link

(My "further reading" to my chapter was augmented by the editor, and I can't recommend all of it.)

G'day, Bill.

For 1815 each musketeer battalion of IR 1 to 9 and IR 11 had one colour. You're right, if the regiment had a Leibfahne then it was carried by the 1st Battalion. IR 11 had two regimentsfahnen, so the colours of both battalions were the same. IR 10 lost their colours at Vauchamps on 14 February 1814 and did not get new ones until 1816.

The Guard and Grenadier regiments had the same issue for musketeers (one per battalion), but also a colour each for their fusilier battalions.

4th C, why were colours used? Because a battalion advancing in line will align itself on the colours and the front rank keeps an eye on them to make sure they are matching the colour party's pace. The companies on the right of the colours dress to the left, those on the left dress to the right. That way the CO can control how fast the battalion moves by simply getting the colour party to step short or step out. They also formed a rally point for detached troops, eg skirmishers, and if things went pear-shaped and the battalion had to fall back. The colours could be recognised at a greater distance than the uniform facings, button spacing, lace, etc.

Cheers.

Thanks guys that is what I was looking for.
William

@ Dal

Those are indeed apparent advantages to having a colour. My point is more that those can't have been important advantages, since if they were, everybody would have needed a flag. As other units seem to have done just fine without flags, they can't have been necessary.

The same objection applies in the case of British battalions where the pair of colours supposedly told the commander which way they were facing. Without even considering the case of the Guards – who switched the colours around and who therefore would have appeared to be retreating unless the observing commander knew he was looking at the Guards – nobody else seems to have adopted this practice, so one wonders how useful it was.

I give every unit in my collection a flag because:
1. They are cool looking
2. They are my toys
3. I like them that way

Russ Dunaway

I give every unit in my collection a flag because:
1. They are cool looking
2. They are my toys
3. I like them that way

Love it. Best thing I have read today.

Agree with Russ….every unit gets a standard. Prussian landwehe are easy….black with a big iron cross….or something like that. L

Good point that our figures are our toys and we are free to paint and equip them as we like.

I for my part am going to paint some units of the 5th Prussian brigade in 1815.

The brigade staff:

link

This will be my 1st Pomeranian infantry regiment:

link

The 25th regiment:

link

The 5th Westphalian Landwehr:

link

The 6pounder battery No. 10 (still looking for the figurines, should be something in this style):

picture

And a squadron of the 11th hussar regiment (of course I will paint the lance pennons black and white):

link

It is a game after all :-)

4th C, true, mate, and a lot of units did get on without flags. A lot of it was weight of tradition and the "This is us!" factor, which is served by regimental badges, colour patches and tac patches today. Though on battalion parades, when I was in the army, is was easier to keep the alignment with the colours than it was in units that didn't have colours or banners to parade. One unit even used a national flag as a colour on parade, which wasn't kosher but did do the job for the advance in review order.

Never heard the one about the CO telling which direction the unit was facing. You'd think that if he was close enough to see which flag was which then he'd be able to see in which direction the business ends of the muskets were directed. :-)

Russ and Dave, I agree- your army, your rules. That's why my SYW grenadiers have flags, as do my Prussian hussars (after researching them I wasn't going to ignore them). However, I didn't give my 1813 Prussian RIR flags, though the mate to whom I gave my Napoleonic collection may have done so. Dave, for variation try white with a red crucifix, sky blue with a red-and-white checked Moravian eagle or white with a red Brandenburg eagle.

Oli, shouldn't the lance banners for the 11th Winged Hussars be red and green, not red and white? :-)

I may be in Germany again next year (COVID and air fare prices permitting, may be 2023). I didn't have the time on my schedule last year to meet up, but this time I should be able to buy you that beer I promised (going as a tour guide for the missus, this time, not on a research trip). Are you still near Heidelberg?

Cheers.

LOL, Oliver Schmidt!

>>>Something I've never really understood is why flags at all. <<<

Even more so why in 5mm? you wouldn't create and display, easily and more correctly battalions as they looked in real life.
It is a game after all :-) yes – but wy Oliver Schmidt do your links go to irrelevant commerical site offerings? Trolling?? or Gaming??

SHa T1984- you're missing Oli's point- taken to extremes people can use whatever figures they want for any army. Though those winged hussars would look good in any pre-1950 army, I think, though they may not be on the table for long.

Cheers.

Dal, yes, still in Heidelberg – will be great if we could meet here ! And I have still the same old e-mail adress ;-)

SHaT1984, neither trolling nor gaming, just joking ;-)

So do I Oli, but not the old address book or most pre-2015 emails, thanks to a HDD failure. That's another reason why I didn't get in contact before last year's trip. I'll PM you in any case.

Dal, it is still: sans-souci@gmx.de

Absolutely agree re flags in wargames units. I give all my British line a flag, but militia not, so I can tell them apart. Among the French the first battalion gets an eagle, the others a different number of command figures, so a game purpose is served.

All my 28mm Prussian 1st and 2nd Battalions (After the 12 Regts) have a Flag Bearer and he has a plain Flagpole colored white or black with finials and tassels.

My reasoning is each unit (13-25+) still had a Flag Bearer position and he still had his flagpole (waiting to get his new flag issued).

I am thinking the Battalions could still see where the Command was located, if held high enough. That is my thinking on the subject.

The OP raised a question which was competently answered by Oliver Schmidt, as for my toys, in case the historical units did not carry colours, mine won't either, for me it looks wrong to see all those fantasy colours in grotesque sizes and pattern.
On the other hand why not doing fantasy and equipping my orks with eagles of the imperial guard?

Never figured out why the units without flags ( I have stayed very well with who has flags or not in my Prussian army) that unlike French or American revolution armies company or battalion fanions were not used. Flags being a useful battlefield item seem to be forgotten in 3/4 of the Prussian army.

@ Whirlwind

That hypothesis makes good sense – until we remember that Britain handed out flags to volunteer and yeomanry units!

Well part of what I was getting at is that flags were handed out more plentifully until a nation started losing them. This doesn't seem to have been a particular problem for Britain, so only its light infantry, widely recognized as being vulnerable, were (sometimes) without them. OTOH, even the French lost too many for Napoleon's liking in 1805-7, hence his reductions. Prussia had obviously lost lots of flags by the time the 1813 army was being formed.