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"Phung Hoang: The Phoenix Program" Topic


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Tango0104 Jan 2021 10:37 p.m. PST

"Except for the significance of Tet '68, the Phung Hoang (Phoenix Program) was the most misunderstood, misinterpreted, and misreported event or program of the Vietnam War.

Though the surprise Viet Cong offensive at Tet '68 was a psychological victory for the Communist forces, it was a devastating defeat for both the VC military forces and the VC infrastructure in the South. The Viet Cong forces, having come out of hiding and committed themselves, could not sustain their offensive and hold the objectives they had seized. They were overwhelmed by U.S. and ARVN forces and suffered tremendous casualties from which they never recovered. The Viet Cong infrastructure who surfaced during this offensive likewise suffered enormous losses, both from the fighting itself and from the fact that, now identified, they could be targeted and eliminated by the Phoenix Program. These losses and the successes of both the Chieu Hoi and pacification programs ultimately led the North Vietnamese government to abandon their guerrilla war strategy in favor of more conventional attacks.

The Phoenix Program certainly ranked high among the most controversial and notorious programs of the Vietnam War. Critics of Phoenix claimed it to be a barbarous program of assassination, abduction, and intimidation that resulted in the murder of thousands and the illegal incarceration and torture of thousands more (often innocent) civilians. Unfortunately, this was the view portrayed broadly by the U.S. media…"

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Skarper04 Jan 2021 10:53 p.m. PST

In fairness I have not read the article, but the excerpt smacks of revisionism.

The Phoenix program was an ongoing series of warcrimes with almost no redeeming features.

The argument that it was fighting fire with fire, since the NLF/PAVN were also brutal in their treatment of collaborators with the Saigon regime or those who failed to render support to their side, while true, is no excuse for what was done in the alleged name of freedom and democracy.

Thought experiment.

The partisan war in the Nazi occupied Soviet territories was conducted in a very vicious manner, and all sides committed numerous atrocities and warcrimes. Do those committed by the Soviet side in any way diminish those committed by the Nazis? I would claim they do not and all sides must be judged on what they did regardless of what the other side has done.

We might understand why individuals do all manner of appalling things in the particular circumstances without condoning the policies that led them there.

Garryowen Supporting Member of TMP05 Jan 2021 7:18 a.m. PST

Great article Tango. It seemed well balanced to me. From my other reading on the Pheonix and Chieu Hoi programs, there was often a major difference in the way both were handled as between the American personnel and the South Vietnamese.

Tom

Oddball05 Jan 2021 7:23 a.m. PST

"I have not read the article", but I will comment on it.

Huh?

I thought it was very informative, got a couple ideas for objectives for my South East Asian games (French and American Wars).

Skarper05 Jan 2021 8:34 a.m. PST

I have skimmed it now – it certainly has an agenda. Trying to paint the Phoenix program in the best possible light.

It may have been no worse than what the PAVN/NLF were doing though on a possibly larger scale [there are no reliable figures for these murders and other crimes, though they certainly occurred and on a large scale.]

It still stands out as one of the worst aspects of an already shameful chapter in US intervention.

While there were individual noble acts and considerable courage and sacrifice by Americans, the whole project was rotten to the core.

Oberlindes Sol LIC Supporting Member of TMP05 Jan 2021 10:34 a.m. PST

These losses and the successes of both the Chieu Hoi and pacification programs ultimately led the North Vietnamese government to abandon their guerrilla war strategy in favor of more conventional attacks.

It's quite possible that one of Hanoi's objectives in the 1968 Tet Offensive was elimination of the Viet Cong as an effective force that could threaten the total domination of South Vietnam after the war.

So the Phoenix Program arguably helped the North with its long-term objectives.

randy5105 Jan 2021 11:09 a.m. PST

"shameful chapter in US intervention."

The real "shameful" chapter was abandoning the RSVN in 1974-75 after expending 58,000+ US lives*. If you're going to fight a war, fight to win, otherwise don't fight at all.

*Not to mention the unknown large number of south Vietnamese that were murdered after the communists took over.

Irish Marine05 Jan 2021 11:38 a.m. PST

As a warfighter I've never cared how the enemy died just that they weren't going to injure or kill my Marines. I don't see the difference of being shot in your bed or dropping White Phosphorus on a platoon in the open, dead is dead. I hear a lot talk at times of good guys shouldn't do this or that but the good guys in WW2 dropped to Atomic bombs on two cities and were called the greatest generation.

Tango0105 Jan 2021 12:01 p.m. PST

Glad you enjoyed it boys! (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse05 Jan 2021 1:06 p.m. PST

As a warfighter I've never cared how the enemy died just that they weren't going to injure or kill my Marines.
I have said that many times before, about any of my troops and those fellow services and allies. In combat arms units' the mission was/is to kill the enemy and destroy his equipment. Break his will to continue the fight. Nothing new there …

Gary and Oddball +1 for your comments as well …

It's quite possible that one of Hanoi's objectives in the 1968 Tet Offensive was elimination of the Viet Cong as an effective force that could threaten the total domination of South Vietnam after the war.
Yes I and others have said similar. For every hard core Communists in the VC there was a Nationalist who just wanted the "invaders" out of their country.

During Tet the North pushed the VC forward in many locations. They did not want to have to deal with Southern Nationalists after the war. By the end of Tet much of the VC were dead and gone.

Even during the 1972 Year of the Rat Offensive, about all the VC could effectively field was around 3 Rgts. Mostly in what was known as the Cham Coast Region. E.g. At the Battle of An Loc in '72 the VC only had a very small number of troops involved.

The Phoenix and Chieu Hoi Programs like many things during the Vietnam War may not have been considered by some that well thought out, effective, etc., etc. History is full of things like this. But as always hindsight is 20/20. The decisions made at the time may have made sense then, etc. Again the missions of the US to gain their objectives, etc., included killing the enemy which was both the VC and NVA.

It may have been no worse than what the PAVN/NLF were doing though on a possibly larger scale [there are no reliable figures for these murders and other crimes, though they certainly occurred and on a large scale.]
Yes there is no doubt of that. The war for all involved was very "messy" at times.

E.g. In the early days of the war. The VC tied two US female missionaries up in a hut. And set it on fire. Burning both to death. The US SF unit got there too late.

During the Battle of Hue, the VC execute a dozen or so Catholic Nuns.

War Crimes, etc., happened … period…

It still stands out as one of the worst aspects of an already shameful chapter in US intervention.
You could also say the same for many incidents like I just sited when talking about the VC or even NVA.

I.e." It still stands out, e.g. the burning to death of US missionaries and executing Catholic Nuns as some of the worst aspects of an already shameful numbers of chapters of the VC and NVA".

People in glass houses should not throw stones, as the saying goes.

Skarper, my friend, to I and many here. You appear to play the role of an "apologist" for the VC and NVA. Some here, like me, realize that an insurgency later turned to a more conventional war proved to be very, very, "messy".

Sadly unlike in a war game or movie you can't pick out the "bad guys" from the "good guys". E.g. by the color of cowboy hat they wear. It's a reality especially in an insurgency. Like we saw/see in Iraq, A'stan, etc.

Col Durnford05 Jan 2021 2:15 p.m. PST

Give it up. Communist apologist will just say while we kill thousands they kill millions. It's just another sign that they are better at everything they do.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse06 Jan 2021 9:43 a.m. PST

Yes you are very much correct … But I'll admit I am somewhat biased. Having been instructed and served with many Vietnam Vets and know many today.

One of the big examples of irony about that war that I have posted before. The cane, crutches and walker that the VA gave me were all made in Vietnam. I'm sure the irony of that is not lost on Vietnam Vets going to the VA or working there …

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