Tango01 | 31 Dec 2020 1:15 p.m. PST |
"Fishermen are cooking up breakfast on an open fire alongside their fishing shed. On the menu, fish of course: fried bonito with boiled cassava. Some colleagues have just returned from emptying the nets from overnight. They off-load several cool-boxes of red snapper and bonito but as they start cleaning up their catch, scraping the scales off and chopping the flesh up, one fisherman tells me they are disappointed…"
Main page link Amicalement Armand |
Thresher01 | 31 Dec 2020 1:58 p.m. PST |
Ah, another communist/socialist "success story"……….. Coming to your city, state, and country? |
Legion 4 | 31 Dec 2020 5:24 p.m. PST |
Yes, but many in the USA think it's a "good" idea, even some in Congress … |
gamershs | 31 Dec 2020 8:55 p.m. PST |
One of the oil companies just wrote off all it's holdings in Venezuela. There is no company that would risk investing in Venezuela oil infrastructure. |
Stryderg | 31 Dec 2020 9:00 p.m. PST |
It's amazing to me how quickly things can get worse and how difficult it is to make things better. |
Cuprum2 | 31 Dec 2020 9:03 p.m. PST |
Is there socialism in Venezuela? Held industrialization? There is a planned development of the economy? There is nationalization and social handouts in any capitalist country. And they are meaningless if there are no specific goals for the country's development behind them. A socialist state is a single corporation that fully optimizes its own economy and competes with other states. Venezuela is just a raw material appendage of China or the West. It is for this that there is a struggle between them now. And there is no socialism in Venezuela – there is populism as a state policy. In Venezuela, there is just talk about socialism. |
Tango01 | 31 Dec 2020 11:15 p.m. PST |
"One of the oil companies just wrote off all it's holdings in Venezuela. There is no company that would risk investing in Venezuela oil infrastructure." Well… the "other" World like Russia, China and Iran did…
Amicalement Armand
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Legion 4 | 01 Jan 2021 12:20 a.m. PST |
In Venezuela, there is just talk about socialism. Regardless … what you call it. They like many other South along Central American states are failed or failing. |
Cuprum2 | 01 Jan 2021 12:46 a.m. PST |
From the point of view of Marx and Lenin, this is an absolute pattern))) However, even when they were a capitalist country, people did not live much better there. Can't be "a little bit pregnant"))) China is a much more socialist country, and much closer to the theory of Marx and Lenin. First – developed industry, education and science. And only then – a fair distribution of benefits in society according to the merits to this society. It is pointless to build socialism in a poor country – if only someone else will do all the work for you. But the USSR is over and there are no more fools))) China is no longer engaged in exporting revolution. It develops itself. And it is right. China is more efficient and is likely to win the economic competition. |
USAFpilot | 01 Jan 2021 6:23 a.m. PST |
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USAFpilot | 01 Jan 2021 6:24 a.m. PST |
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Cuprum2 | 01 Jan 2021 8:54 a.m. PST |
When I see an emotional statement, I immediately have the feeling that I will now be deceived))) I repeat – there is no socialism in Venezuela. There are populist corrupt officials in power. They were there before Chavez came – they are there now. And Guaido is exactly the same crook who would hardly change the life of the average Venezuelan for the better. It's just that he is not kissing a Chinese ass, but an American one))) What difference does it make to the average Venezuelan whether the "elite" get richer or not? This has little to do with him:
linkWhen you look at this graph, keep in mind that Venezuela is one of the largest oil exporters, unlike the other countries listed. Where are these super profits? It's hard for me to search for infographics in English, so I'm sorry – it's in Russian. But only according to the IMF.
GDP per capita in Venezuela and world average, US dollars. link
GDP PPP for Venezuela and Neighboring Countries, 1990 International Dollars
GDP PPP of Venezuela and oil exporting countries, 1990 international dollars
And now the main focus))) Share of government spending in Venezuela's GDP 1970-2016. (yellow – Venezuela, white – rest of the world on average) And where do you see socialism here? |
skipper John | 01 Jan 2021 10:02 a.m. PST |
"You can vote yourself into communism/socialism but….. you must shoot your way out." |
Andy ONeill | 01 Jan 2021 11:50 a.m. PST |
Russia is no longer communist. Just calling a political party socialist doesn't actually make it socialist. It's extreme corruption is the problem in Venezuela. As i understand it, there are still a lot of privately owned guns in Venezuela. We have the NHS here in jolly old England. Not so many privately owned guns. So we're all doomed are we? |
Col Durnford | 01 Jan 2021 12:09 p.m. PST |
As they say, socialism works until you run out of other people's money. |
The Virtual Armchair General | 01 Jan 2021 12:23 p.m. PST |
When I read some of the apologetics for Venezuela, I'm reminded of the same sort of stuff you can read in magazines and newspapers from the 1930's about Nazi Germany and how wonderful it all is. Sure, there are a few extremists who are impolite to Jews, but so what? We're talking about building a Great State, and, you know what's required to make an omelette! And doesn't anyone here remember the film, "Erik The Viking?" "Don't worry! This isn't happening! Pay no attention to the water rising over your lower lips, you're just being fooled into thinking anything is wrong here!" The film is on YouTube, folks. Go to it around 1 hour 14 minutes and see if it doesn't make you think of the taffy that's being distributed here by some parties. TVAG |
arealdeadone | 01 Jan 2021 2:59 p.m. PST |
I wouldn't call what they have socialism thouigh to an American even Sweden is a socialist hell. Indeed reminds me of one of my favourite satirical articles. link |
Legion 4 | 01 Jan 2021 3:25 p.m. PST |
Skipper john and Col Durnford +1 ea., I agree ! |
USAFpilot | 01 Jan 2021 3:32 p.m. PST |
I wouldn't call what they have socialism thouigh to an American even Sweden is a socialist hell. Nope. Socialism, Communism, or whatever you want to call what they have in Venezuela is a mess. Sweden believes in freedom; especially in the way their government handled the pandemic, |
arealdeadone | 01 Jan 2021 3:39 p.m. PST |
Absence of freedom doesn't mean a country is socialist. Eg tour best American friends,Saudi Arabia and UAE are not socialist but are tyrannical near fascist societies. Venezuela like most Latin Amerocan states is inherently unstable and lacks the cultural and institutional strength to succeed regardless of political or economic strength. Venezuela is also cursed with oil. The resource curse is a well known ecomomic concept.
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USAFpilot | 01 Jan 2021 3:50 p.m. PST |
For a smart guy, your obvious hatred of America clouds your judgement. I've spent time in Saudi and UAE and despite your claims they are not America's best friends, |
USAFpilot | 01 Jan 2021 3:54 p.m. PST |
By the way, America's "best friend" in the ME is Israel. |
arealdeadone | 01 Jan 2021 4:29 p.m. PST |
You sell far more weapons to KSA and UAE than to Israel! In fact tgere have been tomes when US has refused to sell weapons to NATO partners (eg when Croatia requested sale of M270 MLRS), yet increasingly flood gates are being opened to Arab dictatorships even if they compromise Israel. And ypu happily support KSA and UAE commit atrocities in Yemen including provision of intelligence, logistics and air refueling. As for hating USA, well it is meant to be the leader of the free world and it is meant to be better than all of us – a shining beacon of democracy and human rights. Yet increasingly the US fails at everything it does both internally and externally. So not hatred but rather disappointment. |
USAFpilot | 01 Jan 2021 5:40 p.m. PST |
The US gives more $ in foreign aide to Israel than any other country in the world. So you have a beef with US foreign policy; so join the long line. The politicians can't even agree on foreign or domestic policy. We are not of homogeneous thought in America. We have factions in this country which are diametrically opposed. We just haven't started killing each other yet; I guess that makes us a little different than many countries around the world. |
Dn Jackson | 01 Jan 2021 7:29 p.m. PST |
"It is pointless to build socialism in a poor country" But the fastest way to make a country poor is to vote in a socialist government. |
Cuprum2 | 01 Jan 2021 9:56 p.m. PST |
There are many countries in South America. You can start watching straight from Mexico. And not all of them have socialists in power. But I don't see especially prosperous capitalist countries there … Maybe the reason is something else? Maybe somewhere capitalism is as bad as socialism, for some other reason? Yet there is no socialism in Venezuela. I'm not vain brought graphics. Venezuela is not particularly different from other countries in the region. Dn Jackson, can you give an example of how a rich country became poor after the socialist reforms? |
arealdeadone | 02 Jan 2021 4:08 a.m. PST |
Dn Jackson, the eastern European communists actually improved living stnadards on most of the parts they ruled. They took undeveloped, largelly illiterate near feudal socieites and dragged them into the 20th century. Without Communism Russia etc would be even less developed and impoverished by now. Note Yugoslavia had better living standards than some southern NATO partners like Portugal. (It's collapse was always going to happen once Tito died). Finally most ex Communist countries have not regained Communist era living standards. North Korea actually had better living standards than the South until the 1970s (noting Soith Korea was a right wing dictatorship until late 1980s) There are some exceptions – developed countries like Czechoslovakia and Hungary did go backwards under Communism. Humgary was arguably in decline since 1918 any way. Finally life was better in the west when a more socialistic approach was pursues which limited corporate power and empowered workers (eg unions). Note US living standards have neem stagnant or in decline for decades since it adopted neoliberalism under Reagan. |
USAFpilot | 02 Jan 2021 9:06 a.m. PST |
Without Communism Russia etc would be even less developed and impoverished by now How? Is it even possible to prove such a statement? North Korea actually had better living standards than the South until the 1970s And were those in the south fleeing north during that time? And look at North Korea today compared to South Korea. People are literally starving to death in North Korea. Note US living standards have neem stagnant or in decline for decades since it adopted neoliberalism under Reagan And yet people from all around the world seek to immigrate to America. And those in America are free to leave whenever they want. You can always cherry pick some example of something or someone be better off under communism (call it socialism if you want), but it is the ideas of capitalism that has sprung humankind into a better future. Communism in the 20th century has been responsible for the murder of millions. Capitalism has lead to invention and innovation which betters man. At the heart of capitalism is competition whose natural forces allow the best to rise. Even today, thousands of people still flee Cuba and endure numerous hardships in coming to America. |
Legion 4 | 02 Jan 2021 9:08 a.m. PST |
As for hating USA, well it is meant to be the leader of the free world and it is meant to be better than all of us – a shining beacon of democracy and human rights.Yet increasingly the US fails at everything it does both internally and externally. So not hatred but rather disappointment. You do make some points here. However, not being an American, not living here, etc., your opinion may be a little "skewed". As you/many know … We elect many of our gov't's leadership. Others are appointed. Regardless, we the guys in "Middle America", not NYC or CA, hope those members of our gov't make the "right" decisions, etc. And as I always say, we don't know what is going on in reality, "behind the curtain". etc. Plus if you notice finding "allies" with clean hands and not having many grey areas is getting harder & harder. Again Realpolitik, is on the menu frequently. Frankly I wish we had little to do with most nations in the Mid East, Africa, and places like A'stan and Pakistan. But the World is "flat", not isolationistic, interdependency of economies, etc. Since I was very young all I can remember is commercials, etc., saying how many are starving, no proper housing, sanitation, no medical, don't have democracy, etc. IMO … places like those "money pits". Money, support, aid in all forms, etc., etc. has been going to many of those locations with little change that I can see. And I've been around for 60+ years. Maybe I'm a "grumpy old man, a terminal curmudgeon, etc. I have a tendency to be result oriented …
USAF & Dn Jackson +1 |
nickinsomerset | 02 Jan 2021 10:02 a.m. PST |
Interesting to see that so many folks who were telling us what a success Venezuela would be under their new socialist regime are rushing to tell us that it is not socialist! Same types as those who want to condemn the west for supporting Saudi in Yemen, yet remain quiet in support of Russia and Iran who provide the same support for the rebels. Tally Ho! |
Cuprum2 | 02 Jan 2021 10:07 a.m. PST |
How? Is it even possible to prove such a statement? Are there any doubts? What was Russia before the Bolsheviks? The fifth economy in the world (by a large margin from all the others), 75% of the absolutely illiterate population, living at the level of the Middle Ages, an agrarian country with regular hunger. In the twenty years after the communists came to power, this same country has created an outstanding industry. Endured the greatest war in the history of mankind, ending it with unconditional surrender. She quickly restored the country, half of which (the most developed and populated part of it) lay in monstrous ruins. First came into space. And she created unprecedented benefits for her people on its territory. And for all the shortcomings of which there were many, it became the second superpower in the world. Or do you think that if Russia were capitalist, it would have surpassed the United States long ago?))) And now China is demonstrating the advantages of socialist economic methods. What was China thirty years ago? And what is he now. You yourself see everything. Have I spoken out about socialism in Venezuela? Remind me – where exactly))) Iran is supporting the Houthis. But I haven't heard about their support from Russia yet. How exactly support? While I only remember the sale of weapons from Russia to Saudi Arabia))) |
USAFpilot | 02 Jan 2021 11:30 a.m. PST |
Cuprum2, are you actually praising the Bolsheviks? History reveals that Stalin murdered 5 million of his own citizens. If the radical Bolsheviks hadn't overthrown the newly established Russian government in the days following the Russian Revolution, yes Russia would be far better off today under a free democracy which embraces capitalism. It's truly frightening to think that there are educated people who embrace the failed and dangerous ideals of communism. |
Col Durnford | 02 Jan 2021 4:49 p.m. PST |
Like the old saying goes. Loud enough and long enough….. It will truly be a great day in history when communist apologist are treated the same way nazi apologists are (rightly) treated. |
Legion 4 | 02 Jan 2021 5:01 p.m. PST |
Yep, say it enough it becomes "fact" … whether it is or not … Just ask most of our media. And again many nations in Central and South America are failing or failed. Regardless of what they call their version of gov't … |
Dn Jackson | 02 Jan 2021 9:59 p.m. PST |
"Dn Jackson, can you give an example of how a rich country became poor after the socialist reforms?" Yes, Venezuela. Not to mention Cuba, East Germany, South Africa, and Rodesia. Pretty much wherever its tried. |
Dn Jackson | 02 Jan 2021 10:03 p.m. PST |
"In the twenty years after the communists came to power, this same country has created an outstanding industry." And created a famine by throwing farmers off their land. Created reeducation camps. Wiped out their own military leadership, executed millions, and invaded Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, and Finland. |
Cuprum2 | 02 Jan 2021 10:19 p.m. PST |
I praise. Although I do not approve of their harsh methods. It was quite possible to do without them. Under their rule, 5% of the population suffered, but 95% began to live better. Much better. My ancestors were serfs with no real chance of becoming anyone else. And now, among my family, almost everyone has a higher education and a good job. And this is the result of the activities of the Bolsheviks. And where did you get these numbers? And by what method were they counted? The archives in Russia are now open. It's funny to see how the numbers of victims of the Bolshevik arbitrariness are blown away like a ball of holes. If the radical Bolsheviks had not overthrown the Provisional Government, then Russia would have collapsed at the beginning of the 20th century. This process was already in full swing. And then Hitler would come and simply exterminate all "non-Aryans" with their "mini-states". Capitalism is not equal to democracy. The proof of this is more than half of the existing world. I am not a convinced communist. But I see that capitalism has exhausted itself, plunging into one crisis after another. It has become a dictatorship of large international corporations, imposing their will on national governments. Globalization and normalized distribution of goods is coming – Earth's resources are not endless. It remains only to decide how exactly these resources will be distributed among the members of society. And the option proposed by the communists seems to me more effective than the option of the neoliberals. All that the current communists lack is real democracy and a diversified economy. They will learn. And they will become invincible))) And in Western democracy, the opposite process is going on – censorship, suppression of protests, electoral fraud, lying with impunity in the press, submission to the commercial interests of large companies. Even de facto inherited power. Degradation. It is a pity that Russia is now trailing behind an obsolete social model. |
Tgerritsen | 02 Jan 2021 10:52 p.m. PST |
I can't help but think that Cuprum is young. I spent time in Russia when it was transitioning from the Soviet era. I knew many Russians then and many who had defected prior. Not a one, Russian living in Russia or defected Russian gave praise to the Soviets at that time. They spoke of repression, oppression and economic stagnation. The Soviet Union ended because of these factors. If you have looked at the open records then you should know of the millions who died under Stalin and the absolute terror he controlled the nation with. It is only the younger Russians I know who never had to live through the economic stagnation and repression who look back at that era with rose colored glasses and a few older die hoards who miss the once mighty Soviet military. Russia is a beautiful nation with beautiful people who have a rich culture and long history. Russia stopped the Nazis (after once allying with them and plundering half of Poland before being betrayed). Russia should be proud of its accomplishments but should (like the US) not dismiss its failures. As for China, can you really say it is better than the US when they have a million people in camps due only to their religion, have been caught harvesting organs for the transplant market, have annexed both Tibet and now Nepal and severely repress any dissent in their nation from behind a fully controlled media? I've done work in China and have friends there as well. I respect their culture and long history, but the Chinese government is terrifying in its naked use of absolute power and may yet prove to become far worse than the Nazis. If that is success, I want no part of it. |
Skarper | 02 Jan 2021 10:54 p.m. PST |
Well put Cuprum2. I prefer not to get involved in these arguments – but wanted to let you know you are not alone in your view. |
Cuprum2 | 02 Jan 2021 11:20 p.m. PST |
There is no socialism in Venezuela. There is and was not him in South Africa and Rhodesia. "Afrosocialism" is the same populism and local nationalism, only under the guise of socialist slogans. The fact that people in Cuba lived richly under Batista is a discovery for me. Can we discuss, for example, the availability of medical care or education for them at the time? In East Germany, sympathy for the GDR is strong enough. Didn't you know? Take an interest. Famine in Russia was a common occurrence under the tsar. Almost every year in some region. And only thanks to the creation by the communists of large agricultural farms with modern methods of land cultivation, it was gradually possible to solve this problem. The echthis re-education camps held as many people as were held in US prisons. Did it ever occur to you that the overwhelming majority of those repressed by the communists are ordinary criminals? Among the victims – only thirty percent of political prisoners. And at the same time, some of the criminals were convicted under political articles. You have greatly exaggerated the repression among the military leadership. 2% officers. This is, of course, bad. But the danger of military coups is still great. Just look at modern Turkey. Was this repression so unfounded? There is still a lot to investigate here. Less than 700 thousand people were executed. There are no millions. It's funny. Do you know by chance cases when democratic countries invaded the territory of other states?))) |
Cuprum2 | 02 Jan 2021 11:20 p.m. PST |
I am 53 years old. And I myself was once an opponent of communism. But I was interested in the topic of the Soviet period. I read a lot, and I prefer dry numbers rather than other people's emotions and conclusions. I can draw conclusions myself. And the more real numbers I learned, the more my moods changed. About the stagnation that was at the end of the USSR, now we can only dream))) The USSR entered into an agreement (not an alliance) with the Nazis only after all its efforts to create an anti-Hitler coalition were rejected by the West. The USSR was ready to go to war with the Nazis back in 1938, defending its ally Czechoslovakia. China is no better than the United States. It is more efficient than the USA. And this is bad, since I live near the border with China and there is a high probability that I, or my children, will have to fight this monster. What about Chinese political life – look more broadly. China was long before the coming of the communists. And what you call communist crimes is in many ways just the Chinese way of life and its imperial ambitions. It is not a fact that when the communists are removed from power, something will change significantly. Especially when China finally becomes the world leader. |
Skarper | 03 Jan 2021 2:11 a.m. PST |
My advice to you Cuprum2 is to just leave it. You've made your points eloquently. Some will never change their minds or even consider another point of view. They are still drinking the coolaid bottled in the 1950s! |
Cuprum2 | 03 Jan 2021 2:45 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the advice, Skarper. I do not strive for someone to become an apologist for socialism and, moreover, communism. It's a personal matter for everyone, what he chooses for himself. Time will judge everyone. I just want those who are capable to look at the world with two eyes))) Spit on ideology. As the Chinese Mao said: "It doesn't matter what color the cat is – it is important that she catches mice." And here I completely agree with him. Now the red Chinese cat catches mice the best. |
arealdeadone | 03 Jan 2021 5:14 a.m. PST |
South Africa and Rhodesia were never socialist or communist. South Africa was heavily involved in fighting Communism whilst at the same time treating most of its population as second class citizens. Cuba was nasty during Batista. Hence people actively revolted en masse. Rich contented people do not revolt and risk their lives . Don't confuse a few rich cronies with wealth for all. Venezuela is a mess. It always has been a mess. Most of Latin America is a mess including capitalist poster child, Chile. Factora here are cultural and historical. |
Legion 4 | 03 Jan 2021 9:07 a.m. PST |
Again, some good points made Cuprum2. Capitalism, Communism, Socialism, Democracy, etc., etc. can and is interpreted in different ways by different people and groups. Personally I am generally content with the US's take on Capitalism and Democracy. Yes, far from perfect, but it seems to work for most/many. The thing I like most about US system. Is you can start with nothing, use you abilities and experience, etc., and make yourself a success. Many companies who are now big business, started in a garage with or without outside support in the form of a bank loan, etc.
Venezuela is a mess. It always has been a mess. Most of Latin America is a mess including capitalist poster child, Chile. Yes as I said in an earlier post … "And again many nations in Central and South America are failing or failed. Regardless of what they call their version of gov't …" Some quotes from someone who is much, much smarter that I. And IMO smarter than many/most here. Don't take it personal … I don't …
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Winston Churchill
It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. Winston Churchill
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. Winston Churchill
You can always count on Americans to do the right thing – after they've tried everything else.Winston Churchill And of course Margret Thatcher : The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money. 😁😎 |
Cerdic | 03 Jan 2021 12:08 p.m. PST |
Legion 4 – the starting with nothing and making yourself a success thing? It's not unique to America, although the US does do it particularly well. For example, in our version of "The Apprentice", the Donald Trump role was filled by a bloke called Alan Sugar. He was born in the East end of London with nothing. He is now a multi-millionaire and has a seat in the House of Lords. My own personal view is that I want to live in a democracy. At least then I get a chance to vote out someone I don't like, even though the majority may not agree with me! Economic systems need to avoid extremes. Centrally planned economies don't seem to work very well. But then neither do unregulated capitalist ones – just ask the average Victorian factory worker, working 28 hours a day at t'mill and living in lakes! As with many things in life, it's all about balance. Balance good extremes bad. Finding the balance though…that's the tricky part… |
Legion 4 | 03 Jan 2021 4:48 p.m. PST |
It's not unique to America, although the US does do it particularly well. I know it's not unique … but I was talking about the USA. Not the other Capitalist Democracies, that would be another conversation. Did not know about your Allen Sugar. Also the US had a former "Movie Star" as successful POTUS – Ronald Reagan. My own personal view is that I want to live in a democracy. At least then I get a chance to vote out someone I don't like, even though the majority may not agree with me! That's not generally how it works, as you know. 😁 Regardless you can vote an elected official out when they come up for re-election. By voting for someone else who is running. Again we all know this. In the USA it has been for sometime, IMO in some cases voting for "the lesser of two evils"… 🤩 Again the quotes from Churchill I posted still apply, IMO … 😎
As with many things in life, it's all about balance. Balance good extremes bad.Finding the balance though…that's the tricky part… You won't get an argument from me on this. I agree totally … |
Cerdic | 03 Jan 2021 11:19 p.m. PST |
I do like the Churchill quotes. He had, as the saying goes, a way with words. |
Dn Jackson | 04 Jan 2021 12:58 a.m. PST |
"Can we discuss, for example, the availability of medical care or education for them at the time?" Then why are they willing to risk death to get to the US? "Famine in Russia was a common occurrence under the tsar. Almost every year in some region. And only thanks to the creation by the communists of large agricultural farms with modern methods of land cultivation, it was gradually possible to solve this problem." Actually what solved the famines of the 70s and 80s were shipments of grain from the US and Canada. While 'only' 700,000 were executed, millions more died due to forced famine, gulags, and being worked to death. As for Venezuela, if the leaders claim to be socialists, I'm going to take them at their word. You are certainly entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts. |
arealdeadone | 04 Jan 2021 1:08 a.m. PST |
Dn Jackson, political parties claim lots of things. The Chinese Communists are the best example of this- they have nothing to do with Communism anymore. Their real ideology is seen through their actions |