"what's in a name?" Topic

AWI? So apparently the WAR FOR INDEPENDENCE began 15 months before the 13 colonies decided they WANTED independence? (April 75 to July 76) and then it was controversial enough that it took a master-pampheteer (Tom Paine in COMMON SENSE) to make the case. George Washington declared that Paine's writing occasioned a massive shift in public opinion,

It makes ever so much more sense to me to call it the Revolutionary War. RevWar is twice as long as AWI but far more accurate. The political goals were revolutionary, going far beyond independence. And the methods by which it was fought, while not yet quite up to the next revolution's levee en masse, nevertheless were far beyond the regular armies of the 18th century. Francis Marion waged revolutionary warfare.

The board, at least, is correctly named.

I'm the one who came up with the original Poll Suggestion to create this board.
There was an initial skirmish over the proper name, but it died down.
Someone said that "no serious scholar" calls it the American Revolution.
I counted the books on my shelf and found that on one shelf there were 30+ books, and 22 had "American Revolution" in the title, or sub-title. There were a lot of "serious scholars" as authors.
I won't say that I "won". Maybe people just got tired of arguing about it. That's probably more likely.
So if I'm spelling it out, it's "American Revolution". If I'm abbreviating it, it's "AWI". Does that make sense? Is it consistent? No.

The thing is, I've heard it called American Revolution since I was a wee OFM in the 50s. We all know what it means. Sure, other terms may be more correct, but it's like arguing Great War vs World War One.
Or the French and Indian War vs Seven Years War in America.
Just out of curiosity, what's the correct term for Seven Years War in German? Just asking. I don't know.

Just out of curiosity, what's the correct term for Seven Years War in German? Just asking. I don't know.

Wikipedia.de says it's called Der Siebenjähriger Krieg (lit "Seven Years War"), but at the time was considered the Der Dritte Schlesische Krieg ("Third Silesian War"), even though the first two Silesian Wars were called the Erste und Zweite Österreichischen Erbfolgekrieges (First and Second Wars of Austrian Succession).

Naming wars is a seriously confusing pasttime.

- Ix

There is, of course, the point that wars are often called one thing when they break out, and something else when they are over! Nobody called it the Hundred Years' War when it began!
Nor, obviously, the Seven Years' War, nor World War I.

When I started gaming I think we called it American Rev, or Rev War. It's easier to type AWI.

@arthur, and let's not even get started on The War of Northern Aggression.

The War of the Slaveholder's Rebellion?

Or the War of Southern Secession? Unfortunately WSS is already taken.

The Great War of Unprovoked Northern Aggression.

Shortened of course to "The War". Emphasis on "The".

Joe Collins

I confess to opting for brevity over accuracy. I remember when we were being told to use "African-American" rather than "black" and I thought, and experience has proved me right, that a seven syllable word is NOT going to replace a one syllable that serves as well.

So it is the AMERICAN REVOLUTION, dammit, but you shall see me using AWI as often as everybody else.

I have a tendency to write "AWI" but also to write "pre-Rev" or "post-Rev" to describe some activity or condition. And what was done here was revolutionary in its implications without the totalitarian "new broom" aspects of, say, the French, Russian or Chinese revolutions. No one was an enemy purely on the basis of descent or wealth. Local and state government continued, sometimes very little changed. We didn't guillotine three year olds, shoot landlords or ministers, or invent new calendars and measuring systems. Even the obligatory renaming was sporadic and half-hearted. (Yes, we renamed King's and Queen's Colleges. Now tell me the boroughs of New York. Modern totalitarians, including our own, are much more thorough.)

In the words of a Lexington and Concord vet. "we had always governed ourselves. We meant that we still should." That's not how the modern world seems to see revolution--though it is a lot easier on the population.

As regards the subsequent conflict, what happened to the traditional "late unpleasantness?"

Ah! On naming generally, consider the Great War, which was being called that even in anticipation, and then had to be renamed World War I.

I call it as I learned it: The Revolutionary War, which was part of the American Revolution. I have no problem with the American War of/for Independence except for its cumbersomeness; the AWI is an excellent abbreviation and rather clear in context, where RW or AR would probably not be.
But if I'm talking about it casually, or referring to it in more elegant writing, I would say The Revolutionary War, or The American Revolution, and feel that anyone in America or Britain would immediately understand what I was referring to… and anyone else can catch up in context.

Yes, there were other revolutions (hence the "American" part), but the clarity pretty much already exists within the primary groups likely to be discussing it all.

Oh, and that other conflict is "The War Between the Cool Gray Uniforms and the Boring Blue Ones."

Grey, perhaps, but 'uniforms' might be stretching it a bit…

When I was selling RevWar figs on ebay, I always listed them as ARW/AWI.

I have lately warmed to the idea of referring to the AWI as Brexit.

42, the "ragged reb" is mostly myth, I think.

And Brexit, yes, I shall remember and steal that.

I like it. The First Brexit, Brexit 1, BX1…

Ah! On naming generally, consider the Great War, which was being called that even in anticipation, and then had to be renamed World War I.

When I write a report I don't use World War One or Two, I use the First World War or Second World War (the British academic preference apparently).

I am quite happy with AWI, although American Revolution is quite acceptable, the semantics allow for revolution to mean a great change, as well as a revolt, see also the industrial revolution.

The English Civil War is a strange one, it is now regarded as too anglo centric a term, especially as many of the key events occurred in Scotland and Ireland, although I don't really get on with any of the alternative names put forward.

Terms like Gulf War One sound like the names of a film.

Yes, when I teach the ECW I have to stress that it was a THREE SIDED war with Scotland on its own side. Too many English histories talk about the Scots "changing sides."

Growing up it was The Revolutionary War or just The Revolution. When I started taking classes that were not U.S. centric the name shifted to The American Revolution, seldom with the word "war" following. I'm not sure where I first encountered the name American War for Independence, and it isn't my preferred name. I think it is too easy to confuse it with the wars of independence in Central and South America. I do prefer using AWI though.

Seven Years War never made sense to me considering the war started no later than 1754 when France evicted the Virginia troops from Fort Prince George and then Washington attacked the French at Jumonville Glen. Its not our fault that it took the rest of Europe a couple of years to join in.

Hah!
And the British complain about the USA being late getting into World Wars One and Two!

I prefer the title 'War of the Revolution' as it was the fighting portion of the American Revolution which lasted much longer.

Seven Years War never made sense to me considering the war started no later than 1754 when France evicted the Virginia troops from Fort Prince George and then Washington attacked the French at Jumonville Glen. Its not our fault that it took the rest of Europe a couple of years to join in.

It was the Seven Years' War in Europe, but the French and Indian War in North America. The series of European Wars between France and Great Britain, with other countries weighing in on either side, were named differently in North America than in Europe.

Then there's the first three wars with American vs European names: King William's Queen Anne's, etc.

And yet none of them are called "French and Indian Wars".
I blame Parkman.

The last one most certainly is…

It's always been American War of Independence here, where we still live under the thumb of Hanover.

There is only one America (U.S. of). There was a war. The Americans won their Independence. Works for us.

It's a fairly good bet Kevin that I was aware of that, and was taking a poke at those on the other side of the ocean. It does raise a question though. What happens when a smaller local war gets subsumed in a much wider war that starts later? Jenkins Ear and the WAS would be an example. At least with the Sino-Japanese War, World War 2 still made sense.

or the Bishops Wars before the ECW. Teaching the F&I was always a challenge: Okay, there were four French and Indian Wars, the fourth of which was called the French and Indian War. Like explaining that the anti-federalists were federalists while the federalists were really nationalists. WHHAATT?

They're all basically correct.
Some are in more use than others.
I prefer American Revolution, Revolutionary War and AWI. They work for me.
Kevin is basically correct, by his stricter standards.

But the important thing is that we all know what the other is talking about.

What were people calling "it" in 1779? 1789? 1859?

doc mcb--King William's War, Queen Anne's War and King George's War (Austrian Succession) are the start of the American tradition of naming wars after chief executives, especially if they go on too long or we aren't thrilled by how they're going. See Mr. Madison's War, Mr. Lincoln's War, President Johnson's War and so to the present day. (We had to skip the FIW because of the confusion between "King George's Second War" and "King George the Second's War" and the AmRev/AWI because we NEVER name a war after Congress.)

Adding to the confusion is a Good Thing.
It makes you dig in further, if you care.

That is how I solved to my satisfaction the vitally important issue of the Rall Regiment.

"That unsettling affair in the colonies"

Actually an interesting question.

My Grandmother called the ACW the Recent Unpleasantness. Her father was a boy soldier from South Carolina.

"Fighting Joe Hooker once said . . . 'Who ever saw a dead cavalryman?' The phrase stings with a needle sharpness, just or not. But even he was never heard to say, 'Who ever saw a dead congressman?' And yet he was a man with a sharp tongue."

When it started, how did they know the Seven Years War would last only 7 years? Or did they change the name each year? The One Year War, The Two Year War, ---?

This is funny.
Rewriting history, ok…
Equally it is the Rebellion of the Colonies, because that is the way the governing/ owning Brits saw it.
Independence (eventually) therefore a post-fact title; what 'start' and end dates are is unimportant; it wasn't a race.

Revolution only as a polemic academic 'catch-all'.
The 'freedom' of taxation was a middle-class benefit they saw going elsewhere; just like the French Revoutuin 20-30 years later.
cheers d

Americans were perhaps the freest society on earth, and knew it, and would fight to keep it. Of course there were less privileged in the colonies, starting with the slaves, and adding many indentured servants. But the middle class was quite large, with land ownership being the key factor. There were still vestiges of a deferential society, with full democracy not developing for whites until after 1820 or so, and for blacks obviously even longer. But when deToqueville wanted to study democracy he came to America to do it, because that is where the phenomenon was most visible.

I believe at the time we were the ONLY Democracy.

Beyond the eradication of old-world aristocracy, ordinary Americans also refused to defer to those possessing, as Tocqueville put it, superior talent and intelligence and these natural elites could not enjoy much share in political power as a result. Ordinary Americans enjoyed too much power and claimed too great a voice in the public sphere to defer to intellectual superiors.

link

Oh baby, did de Tocqueville understand us.

I think "Patriots" would like to rename the American Revolutionary War to the "1st Boogaloo"

When it started, how did they know the Seven Years War would last only 7 years? Or did they change the name each year? The One Year War, The Two Year War, ---?

That would explain the Hundred Years War. The scribes just got tired of fixing the name every year. Sort of like how the Mayans decided the world would end in 2012.

Then there's Julius Caesar's tombstone, 'Died 44 BC'