UshCha | 06 Dec 2020 6:23 a.m. PST |
I'm interested in how folk depict urban terrain from sya a real village of 50 to 100 houses or more, so individual houses are impractical. How do you do it? What are the benefits of doing it that way? What are the disadvantages. I have said from around 1900 onward as I suspect that the firearms are becoming more powerful and the dispersion of troops as a consequence shade the importance of urban areas in warfare. |
Extra Crispy | 06 Dec 2020 7:05 a.m. PST |
We create an urban base and treat it as essentially one big building. Much the same as we do for any other terrain area (swamp, forest, etc.) Any stand inside gets the benefits of cover etc. Benefits are:
- Inexpensive – I only need 6 or 8 buildings
- Speedy – no need to agonize over specific doors/windows/alleyways
- Clarity – we know exactly what is a building area and what isn't.
- Looks good. A nicely made base looks like what it represents
But based on your posts I understand you game at close to a 1:1 scale. I typically game at 1" = 100 yards so most buildings are impractical. |
UshCha | 06 Dec 2020 8:25 a.m. PST |
Extra Crispy, our typical cale for 1/144 is 1mm to 1m and 1"=10m for 1/72. we always have a base at 1/144 that folds flat and keeps the relative positions of the buildings and helps by making a convenient second floor. How do you represent roads/ lanes of clear fire or do you not bother? The 1:1 scale thing is its always interesting to see what the other guy does. |
robert piepenbrink | 06 Dec 2020 8:43 a.m. PST |
I used to do this professionally. Worth remembering and maintaining the distinction between concealment and cover. Many urban areas are covered with buildings which will not stop machine gun fire--sometimes not rifle fire--and which will not stop a tank from simply crashing through. These have to be treated differently from areas where buildings are constructed of stone, concrete, brick or adobe. There was concern late in the Cold War that modern glass and steel urban areas might prove less defensible than WWII cities. A road is something a tank can drive down. It's a pretty clear distinction in an American grid layout or a more Haussmanized European town. Anything you do with smaller European towns is going to be an approximation at best. |
etotheipi | 06 Dec 2020 12:30 p.m. PST |
If we need 50-100 buildings, we put down 50-100 buildings. In lieu of that, say, on a small area, you need to identify different "types" of urban terrain that represent the different conditions, then tag them, per Extra Crispy. Some typical considerations: – interference with line of sight (obscurance) – interference with fire (obstruction) – interference with movement (hindrance), often a function of the type of unit (e.g., infantry, cavalry, motorcav, transport vehicles, armour) – interference with cohesion (the ability to execute orders in a synchronized fashion) Some of the characteristics may have side differences as well as unit type differences. You can easily end up with an area that has 1-16 characteristics. Often, these characteristics are asymmetric within an area – a few houses with low stone walls, some with picket fences, others with none. Also, often at least one side will likely not have good intel on how those characteristics are distributed. For basic asymmetry, you can just use fine-granular area representations. For randomness, you can make a set of cards with the relevant characteristics and similar backgrounds and distribute them face down, initially. Forces with intel can have a peek at the cards. A combined method is to have tables with the terrain effects that are rolled for when a unit enters the area. Implementing the tables on cards to reduces the complexity of tables, and allows you to visually allocate on the cards. |
Martin Rapier | 06 Dec 2020 1:07 p.m. PST |
I generally use area terrain with the buildings being purely representational. That in turn means you need seem generic rules about visibility, cover, movement, combat effects etc. and the ability of urban terrain to soak up vast numbers of troops. In tactical games I _might_ represent each building, but I mainly do grand tactical and operational. |
Dye4minis | 06 Dec 2020 2:58 p.m. PST |
The issue should not be how many buildings represent an urban (BUA = Built up area), but what looks good on the table and in scale to the ground scale being used. The real gaming issue should be Command and Controlling of multi unit efforts in coordinating efforts to take or defend that piece of real estate. |
UshCha | 08 Dec 2020 12:32 a.m. PST |
Dye4minis – to some extent that is correct, but remember even generals were known to position units at very low levels where the terrain was critical. An amorphous blob of city will have no key terrain within it. One of our most interesting events was when we had a real platoon commandet and watched him. he had the ability even with simple wargames rules of identifying key terrain of all types. It interesting to see the different views on what is important to players. |
Legion 4 | 14 Dec 2020 8:16 a.m. PST |
One of our most interesting events was when we had a real platoon commandet and watched him. he had the ability even with simple wargames rules of identifying key terrain of all types. I'd hope so … it is his job … For game play at 6mm, WYSIWYG … Any structure will : Block LOS. Gives the unit(s) inside a modicum of cover & concealment. I.e.: Soft Cover -1 to hit Hard Cover -2 to hit If destroyed will still provide cover bonus for a unit that occupies the rubble. |
Andy ONeill | 14 Dec 2020 1:39 p.m. PST |
By very low levels. What general was positioning which sort of units? |
UshCha | 15 Dec 2020 3:57 p.m. PST |
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Legion 4 | 15 Dec 2020 3:59 p.m. PST |
Yep … or Fire Tms and/or Squads as part of a Plt, based on terrain and situation. |
UshCha | 16 Dec 2020 2:56 a.m. PST |
Legion 4, I must admit we don't generally allow blowing up of buildings like houses. However that is because at our ground scale of 1mm=1m our model houses represent somewhere around 5 to 25 houses depending whether you count UK type gardens or not. I guess that is the gain of 6mm you can be closer to ground scale. However we considered that but then there are so many houses even in a small village that the game slows down too much for us to consider it useful. |
Legion 4 | 16 Dec 2020 8:15 a.m. PST |
We do but it rarely happens. And if so a rubble marker is placed on it. Again we work with 3-5-7 men Fire Tm on an Infantry stand, 1 tank = 1 tank, etc. As I said 1 structure = 1 structure. So we are operating at smaller level than you are. |
UshCha | 16 Dec 2020 8:44 a.m. PST |
Interstingly we do the same in terms of 1 Tank + 1 Tank and 1 to 5 man teams or squads in some cases. However with bigger models we can't use 1 structure = 1 structure. You may ask why we don't use 6mm as it would be better in some ways. The reason is as always compromise. At 1/144 (about 12mm figures) we can turn turrets easily on small vehicles and for us this gets rid of lots of rules and gives a more plausible performance of the model generally. |
Legion 4 | 16 Dec 2020 9:00 a.m. PST |
As always … Do what works for you and your gaming crew. I'm pretty sure I base a lot of our rules and modifications taking my actual training & experience on the ground along with historical records, etc., with modern mobile combined arms warfare. That may not be "accurate" or "good" to for some. But all I can do is look at what we did in the real world along with history and how we can try to somewhat simulate it on the gaming table. It may be as easy or as difficult as the rules being used allows. Everybody has a "level" of belief or otherwise on this topic. Again always do what works for you, etc. Not me … The best way to do things or rules to use is what you prefer/like, have a predilection for, etc. |