"Which companies joined the Chasseurs a Pied?" Topic

Do you think the Chasseurs a Pied of the Guard recruited from Grenadier Company men, Voltigeur Company men, or men from all companies of line regiments?

I'm just wondering what those non-regulation shakos/greatcoats in the ranks of the 3rd and 4th Chasseurs a Pied in 1815 would have been?

Generally speaking, the grenadiers recruited from the Line regiments (so could be from fusilier, grenadier or voltigeur companies) and the chasseurs from the light infantry regiments (so could be from the chasseur, carabinier or voltigeur companies).

Source of recruitment may not be the best approach to the "non-regulation shakos/greatcoats" question. Absent direct evidence, bet on hard-pressed line regimental quartermasters trying to keep all the things Jacques won't need now that he's off to the Guard, and the Guard--remember, a separate supply system--scrounging around for something, anything, left in the stores. First bet is always something a little out of date--the previous issue, or maybe the one before that or something issued to a since-disbanded unit. Second bet is something which can be bought "on the economy"--ideally from someone willing to take an IOU. Cheap civilian topcoats dyed with an inferior dye would be my first guess, for instance. And maybe wicker shakos covered with oil cloth--or leftover Fusilier-volt shakos?

(Bitter memories of having to buy a field jacket from an army surplus store, because the Security Police insisted the quartermaster would issue them and admin clerks didn't rate real SP jackets--and the quartermaster insisting no one in the SP squadron got a field jacket because they had their own special ones.)

Lord Hill,

I am not sure how much time you have on your hands, but if you want to take a look at the rosters, they should provide some information. link

Do you think the Chasseurs…

Not my field of research [1815], but I'd bet on a more relaxed transfer of men and material.

Losing specialist and regimental insignia alone, they'd still need their uniforms as worn in such a parsimonious time I'm sure.
Unless someone comes up with a 'Guard Credit-good' paid for everything, I'd say they would be an after the fact accounting exercise:
Transfer to Guard- 20 Fusiliers & equipment- 300 francs each etc. Total – 6,000 Fr.

Let's face it, they'd need their buttons, shoes, probably muskets and gibernes, as well as those winter greatcoats. Go along with rank and service stripes, briquets perhaps, and the sum mounts up.

The men were chosen on 'relatively' strict criteria- character, height, service and entrepidity. None of which impacted where they were coming from much, except too tall grenadiers wouldn't be taken but for exceptional roles.
FWIW, d

Thank you all – much interesting food for thought. I'm currently trying to put together 3rd Chasseurs in 28mm and trying to guess the level of (non-conformity) so your comments very helpful. I would guess there would be a few bandaged heads at Waterloo, too, if they'd had a tough time at Ligny. (Anybody have any casualty stats for the 3rd at Ligny?)

MarbotsChasseurs, thank you! My god! I had no idea such a fantastic resource existed or could be accessed for free. Amazing. There's my next few months of free time sorted!

@Lord Hill
The 3rd Chasseurs had no recorded losses at Ligny. Parade state strength on the morning of the 16th June 1815 was 34 officers and 1028 other ranks.

The Bourbons in 1814 had begun dealing with the army in a sensible manner. The army had to be reduced as it was too large for the government to support, especially on a peacetime footing.

They soon botched it.

The 'resurrection' of the useless Mainson du Roi squandered immense funds, that could have been used better in supporting the army, giving back pay to POWs returning home, and for the half-pay that discharged officers were due.

Instead, regiments were reorganized in a haphazard manner, regimental numbers were discarded in favor of unpopular names, and regimental accounts, and resupplying worn-out uniforms and equipment 'went slowly.

When Napoleon returned in early 1815 he was faced with a military mess that had to be sorted out quickly. Davout, as Minister of War, was given the task of getting the army ready to take the field. New uniforms and equipment was ordered, but much of the uniforms didn't reach the units, including those of the Imperial Guard, until after Waterloo and that at least somewhat accounts for the uniform problems in different units, including the Imperial Guard, during the 100 Days.

One story has Prussian Colonel Lutzow at Ligny charging what he thought was a National Guard outfit, because of the assortment of uniforms the troops were wearing. Unfortunately for Lutzow, the unit was the 4th Regiment de Grenadiers a Pied of the Imperial Guard who defeated Lutzow, killed his horse, and captured him.

Allan, that's interesting. I have some sources (Adkin, I think) which state the 3rd and 4th Chasseurs were heavily engaged at Ligny. Is there a specific source for zero casualties? Might it just be that they were not recorded?

Brechtel, I love that Colonel Lutzow anecdote!

MarbotsChasseurs – many thanks again. I've spent most of today trawling through those records. So far I've turned up men from 8th Legere, 106th Ligne, 101 Ligne, 36th Ligne, and 13th Ligne (and that's just scratching the surface) – all joining 1st Batt, 3rd Chasseurs in May 1815.

LH,
while I admire your administrative research as it is somewhat similar to my own 'detailled' existence of what was, not what was 'regulated', I'd move on to do the hodgepodge uniforms we all expect- some 'traditional' old soldiers, some close line headgear, others in bicorne but many covered by greatcoats- because just like 1814 it was 'de facto' covering up all the other irregularities or absence of uniforms as expected on parade dress.

Being 'in action' isn't contrary to "no casualties recorded", it's quite possible none were incurred (as it is officer casualties mostly on record) unless regimental 'Situations' are found. Possibly unlikely after a climactic disaster.
d

the hodgepodge uniforms we all expect- some 'traditional' old soldiers, some close line headgear, others in bicorne but many covered by greatcoats-

Yep, that's pretty much the look I'm going for. In fact, the unit is probably too "uniform" at the moment (too many blue greatcoats and bearskins) but I'll work on scruffing them up.

Lord Hill,

The rosters are very interesting to look through and if they had the Legion d'honneur, you can look on Base Leonore for even more information on them. I found one soldier who had the details of the uniform he was wearing when he retired as seen below. Btw do you have a link to your blog?

Edit: I found your blog and followed you. I have been using the controle de troupes of the Ligne infantry to help with my research during 1809. The 45e Ligne in 1815 can be found here link You may need to search on the left to 45e Ligne and then look for 1814-1815. Even more detail than the Guard. On one of the first pages, Grenadier Verdet was presumed prisoner on June 18th.

And 2e Porte Aigle Hyacinthe Mathurin Fougeray for the 45e Ligne 1815. His Base Leonore file here link

3e Porte Aigle Pierre Olivons dit Privaud who was presumed captured as well. Doesn't seem these men put up too much of a fight for their lost eagle as neither were wounded. Sorry to get off track!

Paul Dawson had emailed Gareth Glover with the Guard casualties at Ligny:
1st Grenadiers 43
2nd Grenadiers 152
3rd Grenadiers 107
4th Grenadiers 29
1st Chasseurs 32
4th Chasseurs 220
2nd & 3rd Chasseurs None

In another note Paul had discovered that the Guard had actually suffered heavy casualties on June 15, possibly at Charleroi or Gilly. In addition to LignyL:
1st Grenadiers 4 officers, 281 men on the 15th, 43 at Ligny
2nd Grenadiers 4 officers, 116 men on the 15th, 36 at Ligny
3rd Grenadiers 73 men on the 15th, 39 at Ligny
4th Grenadiers 15 men on the 15th, 29 at Ligny
1st Chasseurs 4 officers, 32 men on the 15th, none at Ligny.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of his numbers, but either way the 2nd & 3rd Chasseurs didn't record any casualties on the 16th. I believe the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Chasseurs were moved to the left at Ligny but were then recalled. They weren't involved in the later action storming through Ligny.

If I remember, I think there was always a question on the strength of the 4th Chasseurs, if they lost that many before the 18th or the initial number was wrong.

Here you go, Lettre du capitaine Prax, adjudant-major au 3ème chasseurs de la Garde, à Monsieur le général Pelet, sur les journées des 16, 17 et 18 juin 1815.

link

As far as June 16 Captain Prax wrote, "In response to your letter of the 21st (1835), I have the honor to give you the information that my memory can provide me after twenty years. … The strength of the two battalions of the 3rd regiment was 1,040 men when we left Paris. We did not leave anyone on the road. This regiment had no losses on June 16, having not been engaged. The 3rd and 4th grenadiers under the command of General Poret were only sent to Ligny and suffered little loss, their impetuosity having promptly decided the case. The 3rd regiment of chasseurs was not even then with the rest of the Guard; it had been detached from it to go into observation on the extreme left of our line, on the side where it was said that the enemy was presented; it was the corps of General Drouet d'Erlon."

@Michael Westman
Excellent! Many thanks for posting this (and for the link).

Excellent find-very well done.

Marbots Chasseurs – fascinating stuff! I don't know whether to thank or curse you for introducing me to that fascinating source – I will probably now spend years of my life reading through it all!

Michael, thank you very much for clearing up those Ligny casualties – seems it was the 4th Batt, then, who took significant losses.

There's a lot of doubt whether the 4th Chasseurs lost 220 men at Ligny. Colonel Haxo, commander of the Guard's engineers, says that a division (of the Guard) was sent to the left and back again without firing a shot. (The 2nd, 3rd and 4th Chasseurs were sent to the left.) No officers of the regiment were listed as killed or wounded at Ligny. Mauduit lists 270 Chasseurs as casualties at Ligny. Paul Dawson says 36 casualties in the 1st Chasseurs, so that would leave 234 in the other chasseur regiments. There just doesn't seem to be any evidence of the 4th Chasseurs losing a significant number of men.

It is accepted that the regiment had 30 officers. The question is, were there 1,041 rank and file or 841 at the beginning of the campaign. One thought is that both figures showed up in different sources, and that this difference was reconciled by figuring the regiment must have lost 200 men at Ligny, and this was why the regiment was reduced to one battalion at Waterloo.