Tango01 | 11 Nov 2020 9:08 p.m. PST |
… Slave Owner. "For Jessie Serfilippi, it was an eye-opening moment. As she worked at her computer, she had to keep checking to make sure what she was seeing was real: irrefutable evidence that Alexander Hamilton—the founding father depicted by many historians and even on Broadway as an abolitionist—enslaved other humans. "I went over that thing so many times, I just had to be sure," recalls Serfilippi, adding, "I went in to this with the intention of learning about Hamilton's connection to slavery. Would I find instances of him enslaving people? I did."…" Main page link Amicalement Armand
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doc mcb | 11 Nov 2020 9:36 p.m. PST |
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saltflats1929 | 11 Nov 2020 9:46 p.m. PST |
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Zephyr1 | 11 Nov 2020 9:50 p.m. PST |
Oh, how horrible. Everybody send me your US $ 10 bills and I'll dispose of them for you (send me your Washingtons & Jacksons, too, come to think of it. Can't have those reminders of slavery out there to trigger people…. ;-) |
John the OFM | 11 Nov 2020 11:03 p.m. PST |
Damn. I was going to write a hip-hop musical about him. |
Augustus | 12 Nov 2020 9:13 a.m. PST |
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Augustus | 12 Nov 2020 9:14 a.m. PST |
I would like to receive all your spare Franklin's please. New evidence shows he was against eating mushrooms and therefore should be burned in effigy. |
historygamer | 12 Nov 2020 10:02 a.m. PST |
And this has what to do with miniatures and gaming? |
John the OFM | 12 Nov 2020 11:09 a.m. PST |
Not a whole lot. You new here? |
StoneMtnMinis | 12 Nov 2020 11:16 a.m. PST |
More New Thought from the repository of New Thought. |
historygamer | 12 Nov 2020 11:35 a.m. PST |
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Tango01 | 12 Nov 2020 12:38 p.m. PST |
Ha!Ha!…. Amicalement Armand |
Delbruck | 14 Nov 2020 5:46 a.m. PST |
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Au pas de Charge | 14 Nov 2020 9:10 a.m. PST |
And this has what to do with miniatures and gaming? It would make for a scenario where a handful of Queens Rangers and native Americans go to Hamiltons estate to free suspected slaves. When they arrive at Hamilton's estate, every "slave" they encounter or touch-bases-with makes a roll to determine whether they are indeed a slave or if it was just propaganda. If they agree to escape with the rangers, they stay with the unit but if, instead, they think they're being kidnapped (a roll of a six on a D6), they sound the alarm and the local militia is triggered to the tune of twice (or thrice) the size of the Ranger's force from two moves away in column. The Rangers must get off one of the board edges with at least 50% of the slaves they liberate. |
John the OFM | 14 Nov 2020 9:30 a.m. PST |
Well, MP, I have a ton of Queen's Rangers and even a double handful of Lord Dunmore's Ethiopians. . I had a scenario in mind to raid the Randolphs, Thomas Jefferson's in-laws, but I kind of like your idea better. The idea was to burn the tobacco. Either one introduces … contradictions. Good Guy? Bad Guy? Of course I have a mansion! Several, in fact. And "hired hands", or "employees" as Benjamin Martin would call them. |
doc mcb | 14 Nov 2020 9:47 a.m. PST |
That scenario works better in tidewater Virginia, where British privateers frequently raided, with slaves being a favorite (self-propelled) loot. And there were blacks among the privateer crews. One of the myriad ways we moderns misunderstand the past is that slavery was ALMOST universally accepted, even by slaves, though of course you didn't want to be one yourself! There was plenty of race-consciousness in one sense, with white supremacy taken for granted, but not the one-to-one relationship between slavery and race that we assume. (For one thing, there were many white indentured servants, and a fair many free blacks who owned black slaves.) Slavery was just the labor system. Happily the Revolution gave a major spur to anti-slavery sentiment. And prior to 1831 (Nat Turner's massacre) there were more anti-slavery groups in the south than in the north -- reasonably enough, since that is where the institution was. The combination of Turner's revolt and the rise of a moralistic abolitionist movement in the north resulted in the south digging in and defending what they had earlier been more troubled by. |
Tango01 | 14 Nov 2020 3:37 p.m. PST |
MiniPigs + 1… Amicalement Armand |
Virginia Tory | 15 Nov 2020 10:58 a.m. PST |
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doc mcb | 19 Nov 2020 9:04 a.m. PST |
link Argues that the evidence for Hamilton owning slaves is lacking. |
Au pas de Charge | 19 Nov 2020 9:34 a.m. PST |
The New York Times Claims Alexander Hamilton Owned Slaves, So You Know The Opposite Is True Not exactly an open minded premise for a rebuttal. In the last decade, this has become the conservative mantra "Whatever the other side believes, we assert the opposite". Sort of gives away the show that there are terrified traditionalists running around looking for fig leaves so they can keep living an opium-like fugue about our history. The author's assertion that Jessie Serfilippi ignores proof that Hamilton didn't own slaves is particularly ribald. One wonders what sort of reading audience believes in non-facts. This piece is just too callow for me to do anything but write it off as a sort of fight drivel with drivel approach.
In any case, it's too little, too late. Hamilton's statues are now marked for termination. |
John the OFM | 19 Nov 2020 10:42 a.m. PST |
Perhaps there's a rivalry here? Alexander Hamilton founded the New York Post. It's on their masthead. They're proud of it. Rivalries and grudges never die down. |
John the OFM | 19 Nov 2020 11:33 a.m. PST |
MP, we're you struck by autocorrect? "Ribald"? * grin* I'm thinking that "risible" was your choice. |
Au pas de Charge | 19 Nov 2020 11:51 a.m. PST |
I wanted to use "ribald". |
John the OFM | 19 Nov 2020 12:25 p.m. PST |
Well then…
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WillBGoode | 20 Nov 2020 7:45 a.m. PST |
Please go to his essay, "Opening a Door to Their Emancipation: Alexander Hamilton and Slavery," it is anything but callous and a very good read. More importantly it exposes the misinformed. I found it curious that previous well respected authors reviewed the same material that author Jessie Serfilippi did but came to different conclusions. I think that The author of the essay who is a very well respected historian who has written extensively about Hamilton demolishes her conclusion. |
Au pas de Charge | 20 Nov 2020 8:44 a.m. PST |
@WillBGoode I said "callow" not callous. "Ribald", not risible. I aint reading anything else of his; the man has lost me with his partisan motives:
The New York Times has done it again. On the heels of its infamous 1619 Project, a "culture reporter" at the so-called newspaper of record writes that Alexander Hamilton "bought, sold and personally owned slaves" and was an "enslaver." If you think this is the role of either intellectual or historian, then you might just have a copy of Dinesh Dsouza's latest historical tome "Hitler was a Progressive". Although at first I was hopeful for Michael E. Newton being a serious intellectual, partly because it would be a first coming out of Arizona State, he seems to be nothing more than a partizan ideologue masquerading as a historian. I suspect anyone who sits down to write a piece with a preexisting motive in mind. Although I do note that he has been honored by the august Alexander Hamilton Awareness Society, seemingly founded about the same time the musical was first performed; thus it has lineage going for it. Not convinced that he might be a a political operative in historian's clothing? Here is his Twitter account tweet from Nov. 5th: "Regardless of how the Democrats perform in 2020, the Left has a lock on the public schools, the universities, the news media, and social media." Well, I guess it's a good thing he could still get published before good, light and freedom perish from the earth. Remember it isn't a paranoid, extremist rant if it's true. |
WillBGoode | 20 Nov 2020 9:36 a.m. PST |
My problem here is I have separated an individuals politics from their actual writing. I did not know anything about Michael Newton's politics but I have read his books on Hamilton's early life and it is very good work. The opening of the piece on the Federalist page did bother me with its gratitude swipe at the 1619 project and the Times (which is very well respected) so I searched out the actual essay. That I found to be well written and well documented. Before responding to this original posting here I have been diving into my Library on Hamilton and was just not convinced by the article by Jessie Serfilippi. How was it that she uncovered documents never seen by other historians. The more I read the more I noticed her interpretation was at odds with other writers. Also, that some parts of her documentation left out important parts that changed the meaning if what she was saying. Creative editing? As to Dinesh Dsouza's "works" I agree he is a partisan fraud and a criminal and his work is political driven and not worth engaging with. |
doc mcb | 20 Nov 2020 9:52 a.m. PST |
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John the OFM | 20 Nov 2020 12:00 p.m. PST |
Who doesn't have an agenda these days? I would not want to read any history by an indifferent author. It helps to know his/her agenda of course. Victor Davis Hanson is an expert on hoplite warfare. Yet he is a frequent Fox News conservative contributor. Luckily the Peloponnesian Wars and 2020 are widely separate. |
doc mcb | 20 Nov 2020 12:52 p.m. PST |
VDH has done some very insightful commentary about modern politics and geopolitics drawing on his knowledge of, e.g., Thucydides. History is what the present finds useful to remember about the past. |
doc mcb | 20 Nov 2020 12:55 p.m. PST |
link The phrase "Thucydides trap" was not originated by Hanson, but it is a good example of the use of ancient history to explain the modern world. I never lecture about real politik without quoting from the Melian dialogue. |
John the OFM | 20 Nov 2020 12:58 p.m. PST |
"History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce." —-Karl Marx Without trying to be "political" here, there's a whole lot of farce going on now. |
Brechtel198 | 20 Nov 2020 2:39 p.m. PST |
We had to read one of Hanson's books in graduate school. I was not impressed and I am less impressed with his politics. That he is a contributor to Fox News again lessens his impact in any positive way, and he aligns himself with right-wing radicals. |
doc mcb | 20 Nov 2020 2:55 p.m. PST |
I guess I am a right wing radical then. VDH is a world-class historian; too bad he does not meet your standards. |
doc mcb | 20 Nov 2020 4:09 p.m. PST |
I am curious, Kevin, as to who among living historians you do admire? |
doc mcb | 20 Nov 2020 4:13 p.m. PST |
Apropos of nothing, I recall a (true) joke from my days as an undergraduate at Rice, circa 1965. Arnold Toynbee was then the most highly regarded living historian in the world, though nobody much reads him these days. So the story is that two Rice students are walking along, and one says "Are you going to go hear Toynbee speak tonight?" And the other one says, "No, I can't, I've got a history test tomorrow." As with most humor, it is funny because it is wryly true. |
John the OFM | 20 Nov 2020 4:43 p.m. PST |
I read one VDH book that I thought was rather silly. He compared Epaminondas ofThebes, Sherman and Patton. He said that they were alike in leading yeoman farmers vs tyranny. OK. 😄 But on hoplite warfare, he's spot on. |
doc mcb | 20 Nov 2020 6:12 p.m. PST |
I enjoyed that book, but it was a stretch to link its three parts together. |
Brechtel198 | 20 Nov 2020 7:27 p.m. PST |
I am curious, Kevin, as to who among living historians you do admire? The work of Rick Atkinson, Andrew Field, Mark Thompson, Jack Gill, Scott Bowden, Josh Howard, Don Horward, John Grehan and others is outstanding, to name a few. |
Brechtel198 | 20 Nov 2020 7:28 p.m. PST |
I guess I am a right wing radical then. They say confession is good for the soul. You have named far-right demagogues such as Levin and Limbaugh who you either think highly of or agree with, so there you are. |
doc mcb | 20 Nov 2020 7:39 p.m. PST |
Radical is from radix, the root meaning root. I'm radical in analysis but also a Christian conservative obliged to love everyone. I think I have some gift for discernment. Like everyone else, I'm complicated. |
Brechtel198 | 21 Nov 2020 4:37 a.m. PST |
And what, exactly, is a 'Christian conservative'? I read that as an Evangelista, which is yet another form of far-right radicalism. Definition of 'radical' (this is in the political sense of the term): a: very different from the usual or traditional : EXTREME. b: favoring extreme changes in existing views, habits, conditions, or institutions. c: associated with political views, practices, and policies of extreme change. d: advocating extreme measures to retain or restore a political state of affairs, ie, 'the radical right' Both Levin and Limbaugh are political radicals of the far-right, and if you support them, you are of the same ilk. |
Brechtel198 | 21 Nov 2020 4:39 a.m. PST |
Returning to the OP, I suggest that it is revisionism, which gives it a grade of 'so what.' And it is currently a 'cause celebre' to paint the Founders as supporting slavery. Jefferson was a slaveholder, and it was he, along with Adams and Franklin, who included ending slavery in the draft of the Declaration of Independence. |
Bill N | 21 Nov 2020 7:03 a.m. PST |
OK I am at a loss and need a score card. Which source is it that claims Hamilton owned slaves and which one is it that challenges those claims? New York was a slave state in Hamilton's times. Slaves were a valuable commodity that merchants traded. Given the people he was dealing with I would be surprised if Hamilton didn't "dirty his hands" with slavery, directly or indirectly, at some point in his career. It might make for an interesting footnote. Whether he did would not debunk the claim that Hamilton was also an advocate for doing away with slavery. |
doc mcb | 21 Nov 2020 8:15 a.m. PST |
Bill N, yes, and he was also raised in the West Indies, where slavery was rife. But Kevin is correct about it being currently fashionable to bash the Founders over slavery, deservedly or not. |
doc mcb | 21 Nov 2020 8:19 a.m. PST |
Here we go again: still not sure what an "Evangelista" is, never heard it from anyone but you and MP, and you won't give me names. But I know what a pedant is. I can post the definitions of "pedantry" and "pedantic" if you like. |
Au pas de Charge | 21 Nov 2020 8:26 a.m. PST |
Who doesn't have an agenda these days? I would not want to read any history by an indifferent author. It helps to know his/her agenda of course.Victor Davis Hanson is an expert on hoplite warfare. Yet he is a frequent Fox News conservative contributor. Luckily the Peloponnesian Wars and 2020 are widely separate. Maybe it's a matter of degree? Victor Davis Hanson is an historian with a strong political viewpoint while Michael E. Newton gives me the impression he is a political operative masquerading as an historian. It's true i dont know much about Newton but it is he who is trying to capture MY attention and not the reverse. I owe him nothing. However, it could be he only wants to capture the attention of the both the converted and those who flail about anytime a holy cow is challenged. Although, that would further suggest that he is simply a conservative performance artist. I would submit also that Arizona State isn't exactly the cradle of cutting edge analysis of American history. I suspect he is a bespectacled manifestation of conservative paranoia these days which believes it can say whatever it likes about anyone and anything without limits under the auspices that "words dont matter" and yet panics when one person somewhere utters a contrary view to the status quo as if if left unchecked, the earth will shortly be tilted from its axis. Although I admit it is hard to resist his credentials and awards surrounding his expertise on Hamilton. Here he is receiving his award on preeminence concerning all things Hamiltonian. He looks both humble and pleased with himself at the same time; rather like that cartoon dog who upon receiving a medal would go into fits of ecstasy. Apparently he rewarded the audience at this award by debunking a vexing, hotly debated issue surrounding Hamilton the musical: Newton gave a talk disproving the myth that Martha Washington named her tomcat after Alexander Hamilton. Rumor has it that PETA is considering minting a new award for Newton's defense in effigy of this much maligned pussycat. link |
John the OFM | 21 Nov 2020 8:27 a.m. PST |
Linda Evangelista is a gorgeous stunningly beautiful Canadian supermodel from the 90s. link I hope that helps. |
doc mcb | 21 Nov 2020 9:26 a.m. PST |
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doc mcb | 21 Nov 2020 9:31 a.m. PST |
I expect Hamilton's reputation will survive, and Jefferson's, and Washington's. If not, we shall have far worse problems. |