Charlie | 06 Nov 2020 2:07 p.m. PST |
Did Stradiots ever use missile weapons, or was their principle weapon always the lance / spear? I'm specifically talking about the later 15th / early 16th century. Perry Miniatures sell four stradiot packs (12 figures in total), one command, one with lances, one with bows, one with crossbows. What evidence is there of them being armed with bows or crossbows? All the artwork I see of them just has them armed with lances (and sabres etc as sidearms of course). If bow-armed, is there any evidence of them being effective 'horse archers'? And did they use javelins, as in light throwing spears? I'm wary of references to 'javelins' in this era as it could just be referring to spears/lances… Any evidence they were armed with throwing spears at all? |
ocollens | 07 Nov 2020 12:16 p.m. PST |
Stradiots were a generic troop type recruited in various parts of the Balkans and Greece over about a century so any sort of uniformity is unlikely. For what it is worth, the French historian Commines (spelt in a number of ways!) who saw them at Fornovo (1495) likened them to Spanish jinetes – but this need not mean they were predominately javelin armed. Rather, I'd say, he is commenting on how they fought – in crude terms, skirmish but happy to get into melee if the situation seemed to favour them. I am sure some Stradioti had bows and some had crossbows. |
Phillius | 07 Nov 2020 2:34 p.m. PST |
Most rules over the last few decades seem to have allowed for them to have crossbows or bows. However, I don't think they should be considered a "regular unit", but more a collection of self funded/organized volunteers. Each would have been responsible for their own accoutrements, so any weapon they may have come across in their move from Albania to Italy could be present. Certainly not "horse archers" like Huns or Pechenegs though. |
Martyn K | 07 Nov 2020 7:50 p.m. PST |
From Taylor's Art of War in Italy 1494-1529 pages 72-73: Around Fornovo "They rode swift Turkish horses and carried a light lance, a sword, a shield and a breast plate". Later "they tended to discard the shield in favor of the helmet and cuirass and to adopt the mace in place of the lance as the principal weapon. So armed they are said to have achieved a marked ascendancy over the French men at arms in the skirmishing around Verona in 1516. This is only one source of information and should not be considered as definitive. I see the lance and something between what the Gendarmes carried and what the Jinetes carried. A lance/spear. On the bows or crossbows, I am a little more skeptical as it is not really fitting with the way they were used on the battlefield. However, it would not shock me to find examples of them being used on occasion. In my army I have stradiots equipped with a mixture of light lances/spears and maces. I stay away from equipping them with bows and crossbows. But if you want crossbows, go for it. |
Puster | 09 Nov 2020 3:48 a.m. PST |
I cannot remember any account that says Stradiots were effective at distance combat – individually the may have been using such weapons, but as a unit I would not class them as using bows, crossbows or arquebus. |
BigRedBat | 09 Nov 2020 10:37 a.m. PST |
It's interesting that the Perry have so many bow and crossbow armed stradiot models. I bet they have a source for them. |
Charlie | 09 Nov 2020 1:57 p.m. PST |
@BigRedBat – yes, that's exactly what made me wonder about it. If there is a source for it, I'd love to see it. I agree that it is unlikely there were individual 'units' of Stradiots armed with ranged weapons. Seems much more plausible that the majority of them used the lance as their main weapon, though there might well be a few with bows or crossbows within the group. And in wargames terms, they should not have any ranged weapon capability. Any shooting attacks they do make should be rolled up into their close combat capability, as arrows are loosed at very short range. The reason I was pondering it is because I'm writing my own rules, and wondering if I need to cover missile-armed cavalry at all. Within the broad topic of late medieval Western European warfare, the only missile-armed 'cavalry' are mounted crossbowmen, and so I've decided they are the only one that needs any sort of rule, I don't need to waste time thinking about horse archers etc. Stradiots could appear if I move into late 15th century Italy, with Charles VIII's campaign, etc. (Though if my rules were to venture into parts of eastern Europe, or Moorish Spain, then horse archers would need covering, but until a miniatures company produces a good, comprehensive range of figures for these theatres of war, ones that I would be tempted to buy, then I don't need to give it any thought!!) |
Thresher01 | 09 Nov 2020 5:50 p.m. PST |
I always had the impression they were armed with spears or javelins. Mounted crossbows are a good idea generally though, for the 15th and early 16th centuries, since they are apparently present at a lot of battles, and/or in various armies of the day. |
Puster | 10 Nov 2020 5:36 a.m. PST |
@Charlie In relation to rules you probably want some kind of close combat ability for skirmisher cavalry without actual combat, represented by using javelins or ranged fire in short distance while making use of their higher mobility. Depending on the scale they can either attack from a short distance with the ability to evade, or for unit bases the opponent cannot fight back (unless they have ranged fire). |
GurKhan | 15 Mar 2021 2:50 p.m. PST |
Thread resurrection: Found a piece of contemporary evidence for stradiots with bow. In Florian Messner's recent book "Venetian War of 1487 …or the War of Rovereto" ( link ) is an illustration of a handbill dated to 1529, with text in German, showing a stradiot – "eyn Stradioth" – in typical hat with turned-up brim and long coat with turned-back lapels, wielding a composite bow as his only visible weapon. |
Druzhina | 17 Mar 2021 2:12 a.m. PST |
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BigRedBat | 17 Mar 2021 4:00 a.m. PST |
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GurKhan | 17 Mar 2021 8:25 a.m. PST |
That;s the guy – and this is the colored version used in the Rovereto book. |
Druzhina | 17 Mar 2021 7:48 p.m. PST |
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Druzhina | 17 Mar 2021 11:12 p.m. PST |
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