"Retreat from Burgos: Wellington’s retreat to Ciudad Rodrigo" Topic

"Podcast on the Retreat from Burgos: Wellington's retreat to Ciudad Rodrigo following the unsuccessful attack on Burgos in the Autumn of 1812 in the Peninsular War…"

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Amicalement
Armand

'Unsuccessful' is an understatemen. Wellington was defeated and has to retreat back to Portugal because of it…

Defeated by who? Wellington withdrew during the night and the besieged French were unaware. Nonetheless, Wellington was lucky not to be caught by Soult at Salamanca.

By the French. He failed to take Burgos, and that was definitely a defeat. In other words, the French garrison successfully defended Burgos.

And the retreat into Portugal was not a credit to the army either.

See Wellington's worst scrape by Carole Divall.

I have to agree that "unsuccessful" is diplomatic – Duberton's 2000 man garrison managed to hold Burgos against 34,000 or so Anglo-Portugese troops (who, to be fair, had relatively little artillery and next to no engineering expertise) – and while Soult's handling of the pursuit was not exactly masterful Wellington did lose 5,000 troops by the time he reached safety

And what would Wellington have done if he had taken Burgos? Stuck some poor Spaniards in it?

Glup!… (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

Ms Divall's excellent, and very readable, book explains exactly why Wellington called off the siege and withdrew back to the border region – it was precious little to do with the French garrison. Even if the castle had been taken, it would have been abandoned – as Madrid was. Fortunately Soult being forced to abandon his very lucrative occupation of southern Spain wasn't a defeat.

Yup! Carole Divall's book is excellent. Some of you should have a bloody good read of it, In fact, I suggest and recommend all her other tomes too.

Agree wholeheartedly. Carole Divall's work is solid and highly recommended.

Reminds me of a story I read in "Oxford Book of Military Anecdotes". A British duchess (Richmond?) was woken up by a messenger with news of a great victory at Waterloo "Wait a minute" she said an went into another room. Then she brought back a map "Where was the army when the battle started?" The man pointed "Where was it after the battle ended?" He pointed again "Ah, so it was a victory!"

Regarding Burgos, Nick Lipscombe in his The Peninsular War Atlas on page 286 states: '…the siege had been a resounding and expensive failure.'

Wellington had discounted his senior engineer officer's, Major Burgoyne, advice. The siege artillery had been inadequate and lost at least one duel to the French artillery in the fortress having two 18-pounder siege guns dismounted by accurate artillery fire. The three British mines, which had to be used because of the inadequacy of the siege artillery, had not produced the hoped-for results. French countermine operations were successful, and the British infantry assaults had failed.

That sure demonstrates a British defeat at the hands of an active French defense. And one would be incurred again at the first siege of San Sebastien.

And Wellington's army had a very hard time in the retreat back into Portugal, at times losing men as prisoners to the French, and others resorting to 'many irregilarities and excesses' while resorting to marauding. All in all, the campaign was an abject failure.

Except it forced the French to abandon all of southern Spain…..?

And that was the result of the failure at Burgos? I don't think so.

And the only reason that Suchet began to withdraw from eastern Spain was that the other French armies had to.

And it should be remembered that if Wellington's army did not have the support of the Portuguese and even the Spanish, and the Spanish guerillas, he would have ended up with his British units being driven into the sea as Moore's were.

"if Wellington's army did not have the support of the Portuguese and even the Spanish, and the Spanish guerillas"

Who would have thought Portuguese or Spanish troops might turn up in the Iberian peninsula, ready to fight a foreign invader?

What are the odds, eh?

at Burgos, Wellington was defeated by himself. He knew there was some fortificatio there (ok not to that extend)but only took 3 18 howitzers with the army, which were completely unable to make any impression on the walls. he was told he could be sent more heavy artillery several times, both from Madrid and from the squadron which was off the coast of biscay, he refused because he persuaded himself the siege would be over before they could come. finally, Home Popham sent some on his own decision, very late, dragged it across the mountain but it was just nearing Burgos when the siege was withdrawn; the gun went back to the ships without molestation.

the retreat from Salamanca (15-19 November) was costly, but on no occasion due to Soult, it was more due to the stupidity of Willoughby Gordon, who got the supplies away from the army, letting the troops starve, and the rain, which got the countryside into a quagmire.
If you look at the returns, the british army lost about 3000 more troops that Soult boasted to have captured.