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"Württemberg fusiliers 1809" Topic


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MagnusPloug202 Nov 2020 6:11 a.m. PST

Hi all

My question is on the fusilier regiment "neubron" of the wurttemberg 1809 army.

I am going to do the 1809 VIII corps, the Wurttemberg contingent to the war against Austria. I am having difficulty in interpreting the fusilier regiment Neubronn.. I do not have much prior knowledge so my questions my be trivial for some.

One edition of "The ordre of battle" of Abensberg 1809, is found at wiki.
link
In each of the infantry brigades is a batallion of the Neubronn Fusilier regiment. In addition there is a light infantry brigade with jaegers and light infantry.
So from this it seems that the Neubronn is a complete regiment of fusiliers.

This is in line with the following knötel, that shows what is called the neubron fusilier regiment

picture

The following uniform drawings (from 1807) show a fusilier uniform similar to knötel, but does not report that it is a fusilier regiment or if the fusilier is part of another regiment.
link

contrary to being a regiment of fusiliers, the following describes (as I interpret it) that the Neubron fusilie regiment was formed by the light and jaeger batallions. But in the "order of battle" from wiki these batallions were not part of the neubron regiment.
link

This is again somewhat the case here where the fusiliers are listed under the light infantry and their uniform is described as the traditional light infantry uniform with green jacket and not as depicted in all other sources showing a fusilier with the dark blue jacket – they do not describe a fusilier regiment.
link

So as you can see I am confused as to what the fusilier regiment described in the order of battle actually consists of. Is a 2 battalion regiment of fusiliers or is it batalions of other regiments?

Prince of Essling02 Nov 2020 6:23 a.m. PST

The Neubron Fusilier regiment consisted of 2 battalions. The battalions were placed in different brigades. Although titled as Fusiliers they were a line infantry regiment.

MagnusPloug202 Nov 2020 9:21 a.m. PST

Thank you very much! That is in line with the first two links.

The last two links describing the fusiliers as including the light and jaegers are wrong then? – it is interesting/diffucult how diferent pages suggest different things – it is wonderful with the resourse here ready to help!

So about the fusiliers – how can they be described
- were the companies all the same (any grenadier companies) as in the other line infantery regiments?
- do you know if the soldiers had plumes on the helmet – there is a funcken showing an officer with a plume on the side
- are the fusiliers the same as the musketiers of the other line infantry regiments or is there speciel things to be said about the role/weaponry/ etc about fusiliers?

Prince of Essling02 Nov 2020 12:53 p.m. PST

Neubronn was organised exactly the same as the other line infantry regiments. Each battalion had 4 companies – 1 grenadier & 3 musketeer. There was also 1 regimental depot company.

As John H Gill says in "With eagles to Glory" page 132 "….one regiment, von Neubronn, bore the special title of 'Fusilier-Regiment', but differed in no significant way from the rest of the line infantry.".

The Funcken illustration, if memory serves me right, was their earlier existence when formed as a Fusilier battalion in November 1806. It was May 1807 when they became von Neubronn, renamed in September 1809 "von Koseritz". The inhaber, von Neubronn died of illness (not enemy action) during the 1809 campaign.

Infantry small red plume on the left side of the helmet; officers larger white plume.

picture

picture

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP02 Nov 2020 2:26 p.m. PST

Ahh the great Knotels, like Martinet copied copies, have been given a knock in recent times I see, for 'hacking' certain uniforms from dodgy input, so caution should be used unless there is corroborating evidence.

A line regiment you say? Then why not designate all the same way? Why call out 'fusilier' in their title? Was it an honour or hereditary one? If not, they probably needed some more lights anyway. And on that- why distribute a 'regiment' one per brigade? Hmmm..
cup d cup

Cerdic03 Nov 2020 7:23 a.m. PST

Maybe someone took a look at the British Line infantry – weird names, odd battalions scattered all over the shop – and thought "cool, let's have some of that!"…

Prince of Essling03 Nov 2020 9:06 a.m. PST

Indeed do need to be careful with Knotel, but the insert appears to be a reasonable representation – will try to dig out appropriate examples from Ebner, Stadlinger etc.

GL Baron von Neubronn commanded the Infantry Division, and all I can think the split was to equalise the two line infantry brigades (no of battalions & men).

Prince of Essling03 Nov 2020 2:25 p.m. PST

"Das Koniglich Württembergische Heer 1806-1871" by von Herbert Hahn page 23 says 1st battalions had 1 grenadier & 3 musketeer companies; the second battalion had 4 musketeer companies.

He also confirms that Neubronn was titled Fusilier-regiment.

Ebner picture of the Fusilier-Regiment link

Stadlinger

picture

Prince of Essling04 Nov 2020 10:54 a.m. PST

Stadlinger's "Geschichte des Württembergischen Kriegswesens von der frühesten bis zur neuesten Zeit" page 486 confirms first battalions had 1 grenadier & 3 musketeer companies; the second battalion had 4 musketeer companies.

MagnusPloug220 Dec 2020 10:49 p.m. PST

Thank you very much for your comments. And my apologies for not responding back!

I am now well on my way in paiting a 25mm minifigs Neubron regiment:) – I would have inserted a picture of the process but cant get that to work. I still have a few things that I am unsure of – and maybe you have some knowledge on this.

1) it seems that some of the references have teh Neubron with a yellow/gold collar and cufs – while some have them with red. I went for red based on the knötel and the Ebner.

2) the small plume. Do you know if this was red for all infantry men (excluding officeres) or if it was used to identify compagnies?

3) for the grenadiers of the 1btn. I have seen representatinos of wurtenbergs infantry grenadiers with a "crest" on the helmet runnign acros from side to side as in this picture?
link

Would it be safe to assume that the neubron are alike in this way?

Prince of Essling26 Dec 2020 12:43 p.m. PST

1) Glad you went with the red as sources seem to point in that direction.

2) Plumes were the same colour for all companies in the regiment. Field officers had white plumes, company officers had white plumes with a very small cluster of black feathers at the base.

3) From Rawkins: ""The grenadiers wore a distinctive version of the raupenhelm possibly from 1808 until 1812, although the only references to the hat are from 1812. The helmet was basically of the same pattern as that worn by the musketeers except that the front plate was very similar to that worn on the 1799 helmet. The plate was embossed with the royal coat of arms flanked by a grenade on each side. The raupe was black wool and somewhat larger than those worn on the musketeer helmets and was worn transversely across the front of the crest giving the appearance from the front of an 18th century Grenadier-mutz. Two versions of the helmet are known. The first has a plain black leather crest as for the musketeer helmet with a brass slotted trim and appears to have been the same basic pattern. The second style is illustrated by Fabere du Faur and has a brass fluted crest and is attributed to the 1st infantry regiment in 1812. Example of both versions of the helmet are known to have existed but the whereabouts of the brass crested version is presently unknown if it still survives. The peak and the rear visor were both black leather with brass trim and the black leather chin –strap was fastened with a grenade shaped boss. The plume, worn on the left side of the helmet."

MagnusPloug230 Dec 2020 1:33 p.m. PST

Thank you – Prince of Essling,

You are a magnificent help when it comes to my Württembergs. Planning to do a "lot" more of these during the coming years I might from time to time reach out. I was trying to find a copy of the Rawkins book for sale online but had no succes – will keep looking.

3) great info on the grenadiers – a few followup questions
3a) for the fussiliers, only the 1st. battalion had grenadiers. Is that the same for the other inf. regiments or did each battalion had a grenadier compagny?

3b) The plume behind the transverse crest is omitted on a few of the sculps i have come by, including the HAT miniatures linked in my previous post. In the Knotel drawing included in my first post this is white and from your text the plume is also mentionen, although not the colour. So basically some have them with a plume and some without. If a plume – is white the way to go for all regiments – or should it be in regimental colours – red for the Neubron Fussiliers?

Magnus

Prince of Essling30 Dec 2020 2:30 p.m. PST

@MagnusPloug2,

Apologies as my Rawkins quote was I now see in complete – add the following to above quote "was of the regimental colour, although by 1812 they may have been white for all grenadier companies. It is unclear if this pattern of raupenhelm was issued to all regiments but they certainly seem to have been worn by at least some of the grenadier companies in 1812. An order exists in the records for 1813 authorising the purchase of new helmets of this pattern to be issued to the reformed regiments after the losses of the 1812 campaign. There is no evidence, however that they were ever purchased or issued. There is one other anomalous representation of headgear for the grenadier company of the Infantry Regiment Nr 6 ‘Kronprinz'. Stadlinger shows a figure in Plate 24, of a grenadier wearing a bearskin bonnet with brass plate in 1808; taken from an earlier depiction, however, this is not confirmed by any other source as being worn after 1808. It is believed that the rear patch was dark blue with a white tape cross"

3a) yes – it was only the first battalion that had grenadiers – in all regiments.

A short plume was worn on the left side of the helmet for all except the Linien-Infanterie-Regiment ‘Kronprinz' Nr 6 who continued to wear their plume at the front tip of the raupe as on the older 1799 helmet until 1812.
The plumes were of distinctive colours for each regiment.
Regiment Nr 1 Blue over yellow
Regiment Nr 2 Red over yellow
Regiment Nr 3 Red over white
Regiment Nr 4 Pink over white
Regiment Nr 5 Red over white
Regiment Nr 6 Red over yellow
Regiment Nr 7 Scarlet
Regiment Nr 8 Red over yellow

Allan F Mountford30 Dec 2020 2:42 p.m. PST

@MagnusPloug2 and Prince of Essling

I have just seen this post on TMP with the very sad news that Mr Rawkins has died:
TMP link

MagnusPloug230 Dec 2020 2:57 p.m. PST

@Prince of Essling,
I see – that is great information – thank you! And good information on the plumes of the additional regiments. I will keep that in mind when moving on from the Neubronns. Besides from Rawkins – do you have any suggestions on good (english language) books on the Württemberg army/uniforms of the napoleonic wars?

@Allan F Mountford thank you for that information which might explain that they are difficult to obtain at the moment.

Prince of Essling31 Dec 2020 1:48 a.m. PST

@Allan,

Many thanks – it is indeed very sad & a great loss to our community. We have much to be thankful for – his research & publishing. W J Rawkins leaves a difficult void to fill.

Prince of Essling31 Dec 2020 2:03 a.m. PST

@MagnusPloug2,

There are few English language books on the Württemberg army/uniforms.

I had a copy of George F Nafziger "The Württemberg army, 1792-1815" – but cannot currently track it down. certainly a very useful tome.

I don't have copies of the following (which look slightly on the expensive side):

WÜRTTEMBERG INFANTRY OF THE NAPOLEONIC WARS [MILITARY COLOURS 4] Author: WRIGHT (D.) link

WÜRTTEMBERG CAVALRY, ARTILLERY AND STAFF OF THE NAPOLEONIC WARS [MILITARY COLOURS 5] Author: WRIGHT (D.) link

WURTTEMBERG ARMY IN THE CAMPAIGN OF 1809 link

The following looks as if it will be excellent addition:
"Fearless and Loyal: A History of the Wurttemberg Army 1792-1815" by David Zumsteg (Author)
Publisher : Winged Hussar Publishing (February 22, 2022)
Language: : English
Paperback : 176 pages
ISBN-10 : 1945430044
ISBN-13 : 978-1945430046

Ian

Allan F Mountford31 Dec 2020 10:32 a.m. PST

Any observations on this image from Rawkins?

https://ibb.co/QFnCghc

Prince of Essling01 Jan 2021 6:30 a.m. PST

Geschichte des Württembergischen Kriegswesens von der frühesten bis zur neuesten Zeit ( 1856 )
Stadlinger, Leo Ignaz link

36 uniform plates associated with the above book are downloadable from Wiki at link (Plate 34 has the Rawkins light infantry extract referred to by Allan F. Mountford)

In 1805 2 light infantry battalions (leichtes infanterie bataillon) each of 3 companies were formed. Strength by 1809 was 5 companies (1 company acted as the depot) per battalion.

Battalion titles were:

1805 Leichtes Infanterie-Bataillon von Neubronn
1807 von Bunau then von Wolff
1811 Leichtes Infanterie-Bataillon Nr. 3

1805 Leichtes Infanterie-Bataillon von Scheler
1806 von Brussele
1810 von Stockmayer
1811 Leichtes Infanterie-Bataillon Nr. 4

Both battalions were combined in 1813 as:
Regiment Nr 10. Leichte Infanterie
Disbanded in 1817.

When raised they wore line infantry uniforms but in dark green with light blue facings (collar, cuffs & turnbacks) edged white, with yellow buttons, buff belt, kasket with black crest, white breeches.

In 1807 they were issued with cylindrical shakos having a green turban and red plume.; in 1811 bell-topped shako with rhombic brass plate and fittings, cockade & no plume.

Note print by Ebner shows the 2nd with a green (not red) plume in 1808…

MagnusPloug201 Jan 2021 10:55 a.m. PST

Very nice recommendations – thanks.

I ordered the "Fearless and loyal" on Amazon a couple of months ago but it has not been shipped yet.

I think I will try to get a hold on one of the others. Very nice open source of the Staldinger plates – I had no idea. And had my german been better the book itself im am sure would be an interesting read too!

Thanks!

Lilian01 Jan 2021 11:53 a.m. PST

"Fearless and Loyal" was announced maybe since c.2016 then continuously delayed…
in the latest news it was given to be expected 21st april 2020 on amazon, then 29th december 2020 and when this last deadline came, delayed until february 2022…
of course the sanitary crisis doesn't help editors but this one seems it seems quite complicated to see the light of day

Prince of Essling01 Jan 2021 11:55 a.m. PST

Further on the light battalions – in 1806 each battalion had 4 companies (page 480 Stadlinger); theoretical strength of the battalion was 686 men.

Turning to the uniforms – sources are a bit mixed as to date to of change re the lapels from light blue to jacket colour edged white. Rawkins has 1808 for Leichtes Infanterie-Bataillon von Wolff and 1811 for the second battalion. Otto von Pivka in "Armies of the Napoleonic Wars" has 1811 – page 261, as does Michael Oliver & Richard Partridge "Napoleonic Army Handbook – The French army and her Allies" – page 330 has 1811 for both battalions.

Rawkins has Leichtes Infanterie-Bataillon von Neubronn initially with square cuffs, and then changing to pointed cuffs, whereas the other battalion had pointed cuffs all along. However the Ebner prints show the 2nd battalion with square cuffs in 1806 and 1808…..

Rawkins has the 1st battalion with yellow buttons & the 2nd battalion with white buttons, whereas the other sources have both battalions with yellow buttons. "Das Koniglich Württembergische Heer 1806-1871" by von Herbert Hahn page 27 supports Rawkins on the button colours.

MagnusPloug202 Jan 2021 1:13 p.m. PST

@Lilian,
Thank you very much for posting this insight. I had no idea that it was new production not finished yet. Did you intentionally write 2022 or can I hope for a typo with 2021 being next date that we should hope for?

@PoE
Thank you for the "light" information. Unfortunately a year ago I bought the 25mm minifigs version of the light – now being informed that they have the wrong (earlier) headgear. Damn:) I probably will paint them pre 1807 pretending that some might have gone to Austria with the old ones:) Thanks for all the info!

MagnusPloug202 Feb 2021 10:27 a.m. PST

I finally finished my two battalions of Von Neubron Fusilies. Thanks to you that have helped. Here are a few pictures of the results. I appreciate the help and have aimed to get an "general" historical correct output, but have tried to keep myself from aiming at getting all small details historical correct.

this is my first attempt at posting images – so bear with me if it takes a few attempts.

url=https://postimg.cc/Vrvpn57m]

url=https://postimg.cc/T5WsNFMs]

url=https://postimg.cc/VrhTR1TM]

MagnusPloug202 Feb 2021 10:36 a.m. PST

picture

MagnusPloug202 Feb 2021 10:41 a.m. PST

picture

picture

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP02 Feb 2021 12:56 p.m. PST

Very nice, I like your work!
regards d

Prince of Essling02 Feb 2021 1:55 p.m. PST

Wow Wee – superb work – very well done.

Ian

Allan F Mountford02 Feb 2021 2:35 p.m. PST

Great work!
Scale? Manufacturer?

MagnusPloug203 Feb 2021 1:09 p.m. PST

wow, thank you very much for you kind and generous comments. They are encouraging to keep going. Thanks.

They are 25mm minifigs. They are Austrians but I found them a decent match. I haven't used greenstuff before – but encouraged by postings on this forum I convered the helmets with small plume for musketers and the special helmet for grenadiers of the 1.st battalion.

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP03 Feb 2021 1:47 p.m. PST

Don't forget to mention the Austrian general standing in as CO.
And did you also putty in the greatcoats, or swap heads? I know the range pretty well having painted them too and wondered!? They look great! Coats!

The blue 'shading' efforts are very good too!
Heh heh, regards dave

MagnusPloug203 Feb 2021 2:05 p.m. PST

Very well spottet Dave! The CO is indeed an Austrian general. I had to add the epauletts and the cross band according to the Ebner plate posted above by "Prince of Essling".

The figures in the gretcoat battalion has not been converted other than the small plume on the helmets.
Thanks!

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP04 Feb 2021 1:57 p.m. PST

hi,
Yes I use the same generals and flugelaides converted for French.
What code is the Bavarian fusilier in greatcoat? I dont see them in Calivers list, and frankly never saw them in an army I helped paint (from 1980s).
regards dcup

MagnusPloug204 Feb 2021 10:50 p.m. PST

Sure thing. It has the code: AN28. They are placed a bit further down than all the rest of the fusiliers.

link

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP05 Feb 2021 12:38 p.m. PST

>> They are Austrians but I found them a decent match

OOps so much for my reading ability. ;-(
I only checked the Bav list… oh well

MagnusPloug205 Feb 2021 1:45 p.m. PST

ohh – and first now I see that you asked, thinking it was Bavarians – sorry. And so it all makes sense:)

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