"The Value of Sergeants to Lieutenants" Topic

"You may have heard during Officer training to quickly build a relationship with your Sergeant (SGT), take in their perspective and respect their level of experience as a Senior Non-Commissioned Officer (SNCO). Reflecting on my time as a Lieutenant (LT) so far, noting this is only one perspective, the aim of this article is twofold: to provide Officer Cadets with the perspective of someone in the rank they're going hold to complement what they learn during the Commissioning continuum, and to challenge current serving LTs to reflect on their command relationship. I want to encourage you to consider whether you are maximising and building a command relationship with the SGT you work with and if you are taking full advantage of the knowledge your SGT brings to the team.

As a newly commissioned LT, you are faced with a fresh set of problems. You need to command in real time, learn concepts on the move and, most importantly, understand the people within your team…"
Main page
link

Amicalement
Armand

My first official order to my very first SGT was, Keep my ass out of trouble! He looked at me and said back, We're going to do fine, Sir. And we did! I learned so much from him and carried his knowledge until I retired. He was a good man.

I still don't understand how anyone can be put in command who has zero experience doing anything in the Army, Navy, AirForce or the Marine Corps, just because they went to college. As an old SNCO I'm still amazed by the concept that 21 or 22 year old should be put in command.

Well in some armies you have to serve as enlisted before you can be an officer. But both ROTC and West Point have 4 years of training to prep them for their first job as an 2LT. With many NCOs who have that experience. And teaches the cadets about those experiences, etc.

I was a new LT in the Infantry, at 21-22, IIRC. You depend on your Plt SGT and your other NCOs. It is a synergistic relationship. And a team concept, so to speak. That being said just like all NCOs are not Sam Elliot as in the movie "We Were Soldiers". Nor all new Officers are a young Rommel, as in his book "Infantry Attacks"….

Just like a new PVT from basic training it is a learning experience once you get to your Plt. And training with the others' training and experience in your unit, makes you a better soldier [hopefully].

I know if an NCO said I was doing a good job when I was an LT or even a new LT asked me how to do something. If figured I must be doing something right. Or at least I was not a total up !

And rely on your NCOs and peers to help you along. But just like a pro football team … not everyone on the team is a super-star.

As well as IIRC, Adm. Halsey said, "When you are in command … command!" …

The qualities of NCOs varied greatly in the years following Vietnam. My first Platoon Sgt was glad to stay out of the Hood so he was happy to have been drafted. A good guy but lax on discipline. My next Plt Sgt was actually a German pushing fifty. According to his record he had actually been in the Hitler Youth. Lower character with three wives, one in Germany, one in the USA and one in Korea. Never divorced. My CO said that he knew so much and I countered with sadly he had forgotten more than he knew.
Other Plt Sgts who proved good were transferred to the Troop/company HQ.
My best Plt Sgt was a ex-Marine who was a Vietnam veteran. Outstanding is a word that did not do him justice. He was there when I went to the 3/10 HHC tank Bn.

Just like NCO, officers varied in quality as well. One Lt ran a theft ring selling equipment to pawn shops. One Major told the alts to go home and punch their wives or kick their dogs if they got frustrated. And he was at a Branch school.
You had drunks and burn outs. But our Squadron was a pipeline provided General aides and Divisional staff members.

So as the XO of the HHC, I also controlled the mortar platoon. We were about to be deployed so I was getting replacements. My new section leader NCO slot reported and I was astounded that it was a PFC. after digging, it was revealed that he was on the E6, staff Sgt promotion list. He had been in Germany at a local restaurant, when a couple of MPs came in and began shaking down the bartender. A fight occurred with both MPs being knocked unconscious and sent to the hospital. So he was busted and sent back home. After a few months passed, the incident was resolved and he was given his stripes back. One of the best scroungers in in battalion.

Thanks!.

Amicalement
Armand

There was a story about the lieutenant exam in the New York Police Department. It had one question:

You have a sergeant and a squad of men. There is a riot going on at the next block. What do you do?

Most of the examinees had been trained in crowd control and they would go through the steps necessary to to restore order.

Those men failed the exam.

There was only one answer that was acceptable:

"I would say 'Sergeant, break up that riot.'"

Unfortunately the Army lacked anything like that when I was in.

LT

In most cases, a good senior NCO can do a better job of leading a platoon than a new lieutenant, but that's not really the point. The essence of the problem is how to create a good officer corps. Leading a platoon is the opportunity for new officers to learn and experience leadership. Platoon leadership is also a test to winnow out the unworthy. It might be frustrating for all and a bit inefficient, but the military hasn't found a better method of creating a captain.

pjm

It's trickier in staff positions, but in a line unit, if you need your sergeants and your lieutenants to know and do the same things, something's wrong. It's an officer's job to carry out a mission, and to know how to carry it out. It's a sergeant's job to see he has the tool to do it with--trained, disciplined men, properly equipped and the equipment in good working order.

And Rudy's right: the US Army had real troubles in the NCO ranks for years after Vietnam. I knew some excellent ones, but far too many were riding with their feet up, or just didn't have the capacity. You learned not to go too far up the chain be cause a bright Spec 4 might solve your problem and a senior NCO was likely to promise and not deliver. It was clearly getting better by the late 1990's, but not altogether solved.

Here is my take from the Marine philosophy. The Marines have a "Platoon Leader Course". A leader leads, a commander commands.

In the Marines you have a Platoon Leader, Company Commander, Battalion Commander, etc up the chain. What's the difference? A leader leads – from the front. It's the 2nd LT Platoon Leader job to expose himself to enemy fire to motivate and lead and not ask his platoon to do something he won't do himself. A new 2nd LT is expendable, a Platoon Sergeant (E-6) is not. Sorry, that's just the way it is. That's one of the reasons their causality rate is so high in addition to being inexperienced. In my game 2nd LT's have twice the chance of becoming a causality.

There is also the morale philosophy that when the lower enlisted see officers getting shot too they are more likely to follow them. When the officers lead from the rear playing it safe morale dips.

IIRC there is a quote from Patton saying the unit needed to get more officers up front so they can get shot too as it serves as a good example to the men. Chesty Puller was supposed to be especially harsh on 2nd LT's too.

You can't lead from the rear "commanding" others to do something you won't. There are occasions when the Company Commander may intervene and be the leader to get things going or may relieve the 2nd LT and have the XO 1st LT take his place.

The level a 2nd LT is in "command" is mostly left up to the Platoon Sergeant.

Wolfhag

Rudy, mckrok & Robert +1 each …

In the Marines you have a Platoon Leader, Company Commander, Battalion Commander, etc up the chain. What's the difference? A leader leads – from the front.

Same in the US Army.

Pretty much everybody's posts are biased even a little bit based on their rank and experiences when in the military. I'll admit being an officer some of my observations, etc., may be different from NCOs, etc.

Did I always make the right decisions ? Usually but not always, I'll freely admit that, but as usual hindsight is 20/20. As I said a positive comment from an NCO was worth more than from another officer in most cases. Of course if a Gen. says you are a hard charger and doing a good. That means a lot too. Albeit very rare …

I may have been more decorated than some, but that does not always say you are a good leader, etc. E.g. I was awarded an MSN for my service in the ROK for 22 months. With a forward deployed Mech Bn. But after I got back from the ROK. When at Combined Arms School one of the officers in my class, an ADA officer. Had 3 MSMs for being the OIC of a post EOC. He was a pretty good officer. We both did our duty only in different environs and situations.

What our troops thought about us. I'm sure it varied … What did our peers and superiors think about us, again, I'm sure it varied as well.