"Help Newbie to Napoleonics" Topic
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27 Oct 2020 7:42 a.m. PST by Editor in Chief Bill
- Changed title from "Help with Newbie to Napoleonics" to "Help Newbie to Napoleonics"
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Dragon Gunner | 26 Oct 2020 11:11 p.m. PST |
I am starting a new period and only wish to dabble in it. My chosen rule set is Quick Easy Napoleonic's by Jon Linney PDF link (16 pages) I have decided to use AB miniatures 18mm and I am planning on building French and Austrian armies to start 1809-1811 time frame. What I need help with is army composition for this game where battalions are the basic unit. Example how many battalions of French fusiliers should I have and what would be a reasonable amount of Guard to collect? I have been conducting research on the subject online and I am not finding anything definitive. I am not interested in refighting historical battles I just want to slap some miniatures down on the table and create some fictional battles but would like them to be somewhat balanced. Could someone give me some guidance? |
setsuko | 27 Oct 2020 1:14 a.m. PST |
If battalions are your building block, you need to think how brigades, divisions and corps interacted. And at 18mm scale, I assume that you'll be mostly focused on divisions in the end. For 1809, you can use Wagram as a starting point, as it's easy to find an order of battle to work from. And I don't mean this as in that you have to slavishly follow them, but they give you a good hint at how to balance your collection to have it look pretty close to the real deal. Let's go with Davout's III corps because I like Davout. ;) At Wagram, Davout's corps had four infantry divisions. Each division had two or three brigades. Those brigades could either be made of battalions from the same regiment, or a combination of regiments. Let's take the 1 infantry division as an example: 1st Infantry Division: GdD Morand -- Infantry Brigade: GdB Lacour - – - – 13th Light Infantry [3 btns.] - – - – 17th Line Infantry [3 btns.] -- Infantry Brigade: GdB l'Hullier - – -- – 30th Line Infantry [3 btns.] - – -- – 61st Line Infantry [3 btns.] Artillery – - – - – - – 8pdr Foot Battery [8 guns] – - – - – - – 6pdr Foot Battery [8 guns] – - – - – - – 4pdr Foot Battery [6 guns] As you see the mix would be of line and light battalions, not of line and guard battalions. The Guards were away in their own corps! So when starting out, I'd first think of recreating a division, as in this case it will give you 12 battalions to paint up as well as three artillery batteries. Divisions usually operated together, so it makes sense for them to fight together.
Once you have a division down, you can either then expand with more divisions from the same Corps, add cavalry (which would often be detached to support a division) or do something crazy, like adding a brigade of Guard who just happened to be nearby. ;) |
Dragon Gunner | 27 Oct 2020 1:17 a.m. PST |
Thank you that was the help I needed. |
setsuko | 27 Oct 2020 1:25 a.m. PST |
You can use this Order of Battle for Wagram if you want inspiration: link For my own 28mm collection I basically took the Borodino 1812 OoB, and looked up regiments that were at least there. My French infantry is specific to the I Coprs, where I'm focusing on one division at first, but I also introduce other stuff that I want to paint. I've painted up a lot of cavalry regiments that were in different corps etc, just because I liked the uniforms. I also paint up infantry regiments from all over the army, like Vistula Legion (which were in the Guard) and various allied regiments that were not in the main infantry corps that I'm focusing on. After all we collect and paint for fun, so you decide your limits yourself. |
La Fleche | 27 Oct 2020 2:29 a.m. PST |
Just my two wooden Groat's worth… [I] only wish to dabble… Then be careful not to get too bogged down in detail. It sounds like you just want to experience the flavour and colour of the period, not spend endless hours reading musty tomes finding out how many grenadiers in Suchet's army came down with a dose of the clap at the siege of Tarragona, or just which blades of grass were trampled in the assault on Hougomont. What I need help with is army composition… You could go the "follow an OOB" route as mentioned above, but since: I am not interested in refighting historical battles I just want to slap some miniatures down on the table and create some fictional battles… then what you may want to be more concerned with is relative proportions (roughly), modified by personal preference. In the French army, for example, there was roughly four times as many line infantry regiments than light. The number of dragoon and mounted chasseur regiments was each roughly the same as the number of light infantry regiments. The number of cuirassier and hussar regiments was each roughly half the number of the of dragoon and mounted chasseur regiments. Later there were lancer regiments at roughly half the number of either the cuirassier or hussar regiments. There was (and I emphasize ROUGHLY) roughly one foot artillery battery for every 6-8 infantry battalions and one horse artillery battery for every 2 cavalry regiments (8-10 squadrons). Command stands would vary according to rules but generally one per 6 battalions and 2 cavalry regiments (brigade commanders in divisional-level games) and a further command stand for each pair of the above (the divisional commander), adding one command stand per pair as you go up the force levels ([Brigade], Division, Corps, Army). The highler level you go the more you can reasonably expect to field guard units, the proportions of which depend on personal preference, as would the inclusion of unusual and especially colourful units to add visual interest not to mention breaking up the tedium of painting masses of same-uniformed figures!. Not historically accurate of course but good enough for a balanced force that will allow you to experiment with the tactics of the day at a variety of command levels. |
Dragon Gunner | 27 Oct 2020 3:08 a.m. PST |
How does this sound to start for the French? 12 Line Fusilier Battalions 3 Voltigeur Light Infantry Battalions (or should they be Chasseurs?) 1 Grenadier Battalion 2 Foot Artillery Batteries 2 Horse Artillery Batteries A variety of cavalry not all will make it into play every game… 2 Dragoon Regiments 2 Mounted Chasseur Regiments 1 Hussar Regiment 1 Cuirassier Regiment 1 Lancer Regiment 2 company stands of sappers 3 Guard Battalions for a fictional what if scenario… |
La Fleche | 27 Oct 2020 4:28 a.m. PST |
Sounds about right to me. That would make a balanced and versatile collection, easily expanded in the future if desired. |
Eumelus | 27 Oct 2020 4:39 a.m. PST |
Dragon Gunner: I like your list, two notes: (1) There were no lancer regiments in the French army in 1809 (they were converted from Dragoon regiments in 1812). Also in 1809 the majority of dragoon regiments remained in Spain. Therefore I recommend adding to your Mounted Chasseur and/or Hussars. (2) For a truly proportional list, about a third of your line infantry and light cavalry should be German allies (Bavarian, Wurtemburg, Baden, or Saxon). Your Austrian list would have similar proportions, with Grenzer and/or Jaeger battalions as the light infantry. No Guard in the Austrian army, so use Grenadiers. |
Rakkasan | 27 Oct 2020 4:45 a.m. PST |
During the period 1809-1811 it would be unusual to see a French grenadier battalion as you outline above. The grenadier and voltiguer companies remained with their parent battalions and rarely consolidated. (Note: The Austrians did consolidate their grenadiers.) The Light battalions were composed of carabiners (grenadiers in the line battalion), chasseur (fusilier in the line battalion) and voltiguer (same in the line battalion). Again, while possible that the elite types could be consolidated, it was not the norm. You could have more artillery but the 4 batteries are fine. Cavalry is another one of those things that varies a lot. For 1809 to 1811 there were no French lancer units. Some allies such as the Poles had lancers but not the French themselves. If you want to limit your numbers further, you could just do 2 heavy cav regiments (dragoon or cuirassier) and 2 light cav regiments (chasseur or hussar) |
nsolomon99 | 27 Oct 2020 4:48 a.m. PST |
Dragon Gunner, everyone needs to have some Old Guard in their army just for fun and the glory of it all. One extra option to consider would be a couple of Young Guard battalions – they were generally good quality troops and were much more frequently committed to battle than the Old Guard. Lets you field some elite battalions without using the Old Guard all the time in a rather non historical manner. Its like having some Grenadier battalions for the Austrians. |
La Fleche | 27 Oct 2020 4:55 a.m. PST |
Good points and clarification above. French converged grenadier battalions were disbanded by 1808 in central and northern Europe theatre but were present in Spain after that date. You could be a devil and have the 1er Chevaux-l้gers Lanciers de la Garde Imperiale which was formed in 1807. |
jwebster | 27 Oct 2020 9:55 a.m. PST |
only wish to dabble in it. how many battalions of French fusiliers should I have Honestly, Napoleonics is a huge rabbit hole and people usually go all in or avoid it completely. Rules are a constant problem, and there are several different basing schemes out there. I would check whether anyone local to you is playing, and what basing scheme they use. Recent rule sets are flexible and support any basing scheme, so long as all units are based the same … In historical actions, whole divisions and army Corps clashed against each other, so looking at organization lists can tell you what proportions of troops existed, etc. The proportion of ordinary line infantry to anything else was much higher than you see on most table tops If you want to do small actions that are not necessarily historical,honestly, anything can go. Small sections of battles, rearguard actions, etc. The first divisions of a Corps usually had better quality troops, more light infantry, more experience etc. You could have a couple of battalions of Guard sent in to reinforce or make an assault. Couple of cavalry regiments sent in for support. I would say anything more than the above is going to be more than dabbling, and you run the risk of running into the biggest problem in Napoleonics – other peoples' opinions I consider myself a Napoleonics addict, but am still building up my own forces and doubt that I will ever get past small scale actions. I have a single French Infantry brigade of 6 battalions. It's taken from an oob in Spain where the first division was 50% legere. Few guns and one regiment of dragoons and I am ready for my first game, as soon as I finish those rule changes I have planned I read somewhere that the AB Napoleonics are the best range of wargaming figures ever created. They are a joy to paint Good luck John |
79thPA | 27 Oct 2020 9:57 a.m. PST |
I would get rid of the lone grenadier battalion. |
John Tyson | 27 Oct 2020 11:13 a.m. PST |
Dragon Gunner, below are my current 15mm Napoleonic armies in what I call their typical Order of Battle (OoB). I am satisfied with my armies composition. My figure scale is 1:20. Cannon/Howitzer scale is 1:2. My game board is 8 feet by 6 feet (8'x 6'). I also play fictional battles and my OoB's are not historical formations. I'm retired and typical play solo games and my battles are typically Corps size battles. Of course, smaller battles can be easily accomplished. My rule set of choice is, "General de Brigade Deluxe Edition."
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4th Cuirassier | 27 Oct 2020 11:55 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the rules link, those look like a straightforward set. At risk of fogging the matter, there are some further gross assumptions similar to those outlined by La Fleche at 2:29 that you can make to simplify what you acquire. Very generally: - Infantry were about 75 to 80% of the field army; - Cavalry were about 15 to 20%; - Gunners and others, 5 to 7%. If you are planning on acquiring 15 foot battalions, you can gross up the rest of your force from there. The rules you've linked don't say how many figures per base, but the illustrations all point to three foot and two cavalry per base. So a battalion is 12 figures. 15 such battalions are 180 figures, so if that number is 75 to 80% of the total, it implies you can have about 50 to 60 cavalry. Your cavalry regiments are 8 figures each so that suggests about seven of them. This sense-checks rather well, because the typical field strength of a battalion was 500 to 600 men and of a cavalry regiment 350 to 400 (nominal establishment strength was much higher but didn't last long on campaign). So cavalry regiments were about two-thirds the size of a foot battalion, and yours are. The typical ratio of guns in a French Napoleonic field army was around 3 or 3.5 guns per 1,000 men. Your 15 battalions and seven cavalry regiments add up to about 12,000 men, so if you have 36 to 40 guns, you have a plausible battlefield ratio. French batteries contained 6 pieces (horse) or 8 pieces (foot); so something like three foot and two horse batteries gives you the right number of guns. Assuming 100 to 150 crew for each of your batteries, that's about 600 men, which lo and behold! is the aforementioned 5% of the total 12,000 headcount. In 1805 (1812 in brackets) the French army comprised: Line infantry regiments, 89 (105); Light infantry regiments, 26 (33): Cuirassiers, 12 (14); Carabiniers, 2 (2, but armoured from 1810); Dragoons, 30 (24); Lancer, 0 (7); Hussars, 10 (13); Chasseurs a cheval, 24 (28). You've got seven cavalry regiments to play with, so a proportionate cavalry force might comprise one cuirassier, two dragoon, one lancer, one hussar and two chasseur regiments. You've then got a historically representative force that isn't unfairly loaded up with elites. I'd tend to avoid Old Guard, as they're a bit invincible unless you're fighting the Prussians, and maybe go for Young Guard in lieu of one of the light battalions. To relieve the tedium of painting endless French line infantry, you could consider having a Swiss mercenary unit. You'd use the same figures as for French line but they wore red coats instead of blue, with red, yellow or light blue facings. One other point about painting French battalions comprised six companies in this era, one grenadier, one voltigeur and four fusilier. The grenadiers formed up on the right, the voltigeurs on the left unless they were deployed as skirmishers. In the light infantry it was the same except that the grenadiers were called carabiniers and the fusiliers were called chasseurs. There is something to be said for representing this in the units you paint, by having two grenadier, two voltigeur and eight fusilier figures. It relieves the painting tedium to have a variety of uniforms, you can have them in a different pose to mark them out (I have grenadiers standing firing and voltigeurs kneeling firing), and it tells you instantly what size of unit each block of bases represents. The same applies to cavalry where one figure in eight is an elite company bloke. Elite dragoons wore either a red plume or I think sometimes a bearskin; chasseurs in shakoes might have an elite company in colpacks Google is your friend. |
Dragon Gunner | 27 Oct 2020 4:00 p.m. PST |
Gentlemen I want to thank all of you this has been a wealth of information. I will ditch the grenadier battalion. One of my brigades will be composed of allies to add more color and variation. My 4 stand battalions will have some Grenadiers and Voltiguers on the bases. I will collect a small mix of Guard brigades over time. No French Lancers I will substitute Polish Lancers. I will google uniforms. Th orbats are very helpful. The Austrians seem straight forward and I will add some grenadier battalions. My last question pertains to raw / concscript / poor units. Should I just declare a particular unit is of lower quality or are there some historical units that were inferior, for example Austrian Landwehr? What would be the French equal of the Lanwehr? |
4th Cuirassier | 27 Oct 2020 4:09 p.m. PST |
There were six battalions of Austrian Landwehr at Aspern-Essling and Wagram where, to everyone's surprise, they acquitted themselves rather well. I would just designate the appropriate portion of units raw. I'd choose the worst-painted, so they improve the table by routing off it. I think your rules are correct in saying artillery shouldn't be rated raw. The level of technical training artillerymen had would tend to ensure a degree of reliability. The Spanish army was notoriously pi55 poor, but the artillery fought to the last round with exemplary guts. Spanish soldiers have always been brave fighters individually, and where bad officers weren't the main factor, they still were. Austrian dragoons are light cavalry by the way, in case you hadn't worked that out for yourself yet. |
Frederick | 27 Oct 2020 6:11 p.m. PST |
Great comments and advice – my French army has about 25 infantry battalions, five legere, 20 line; 8 batteries, and I have 15 regiments of cavalry – 4 cuirassiers, 5 dragoons, 3 hussars, 3 chasseurs a cheval which is way too many cuirassiers but I do like them So no Guard yet – maybe later I have about the same number of Austrians overall; mostly German infantry with 3 blue pants (Hungarian) units but with 2 battalions of jaegers, more dragoons and a solitary regiment of cuirassiers (have three more to paint up) but no grenadiers; need to do some of them as they were the Austrian equivalent of Guard |
4th Cuirassier | 28 Oct 2020 3:03 a.m. PST |
Austrians are interesting. At this date I think the regiments were on the 3.5 battalion formation, I. E. three musketeer battalions and half a battalion of grenadiers. The regiments were brigades in pairs and the grenadiers converged so you had in effect a grenadier battalion for every six musketeer battalions. Two such brigades gives you fourteen battalions, close to your French. On your question re French militia, there was the National Guard, but they didn't often fight with the field army and were more usually used as a pool of headcount for the regulars. |
setsuko | 28 Oct 2020 5:50 a.m. PST |
Austrian Landwehr were a very mixed bag, where some ended up performing surprisingly well, similar to and even better than some line regiments, while others would even dissapear into the countryside the night before battle, or folding at even a hint of danger. So you could rate them very differently and still be reasonably historically accurate. |
ferg981 | 31 Oct 2020 6:44 a.m. PST |
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Au pas de Charge | 31 Oct 2020 8:05 a.m. PST |
@John Tyson In your army lists for whatever rules you use, I see both the Spanish commanders AND the Spanish troops are downgraded to what amounts to "dreck". Why even bother playing them if you're looking for a forgone conclusion? I would imagine Neapolitan troops get similar downgrades? |
pbishop12 | 31 Oct 2020 3:13 p.m. PST |
@John Tyson & @MiniPigs. I guess John derives his Spanish grading from history. Perhaps I may not have diminished the rank and file quite so much, but certainly the overwhelming majority of commanders rate as John portrays. I sold off my own Spanish forces some years ago and haven't had the inclination to replace them. And typically they lose But like the Austrians to a degree, they always come back. If John has a bend for the Peninsular war, he can't ignore it. As far as his ruleset he pushes, General de Brigade, I'm with him. Tried about everything, and always came back, even going so far as rebasinng my collection a few years ago. At the 20:1 figure ratio in 28MM, the spectacle is well worth it. For a newbie however, I'd do this in 15MM as a 28MM collection for this ruleset could get prohibitive. I've been at it about 45 years (probably John's age group), so its been a gradual growth. Paul/Houston TX |
John Tyson | 31 Oct 2020 3:53 p.m. PST |
@ MiniPigs Thanks for your question about my 15mm Spanish troops. The rules I use are "General de Brigade, Deluxe Edition." Actually, having a force of questionable quality can be quite fun! And, don't assume any forgone conclusions!! :-) I assembled this Spanish force to align them with my British forces. I give the Spanish some autonomy and under, not command, but direction of Wellington. Getting General Cuesta to listen to Wellington's requests is, well,…difficult. The questionable Spanish are generally positioned where they can't get into too much trouble, in good defensive terrain, secure flanks, etc. In one of my fictional battles, I had the British coming to their rescue. That was fun to see. I think I've had my Spanish force involved in five games and, surprisingly, although clearly unreliable, in every battle they have acquitted themselves well. In the last fictional battle (Battle of Lucha Pass) the Spanish force was placed on the British right, in a relatively good defensive position. The French commander chose to make his main attack against the Spaniards, hoping to easily drive off the poor Spanish troops and then turn the British right flank. The French committed an entire Infantry division (two brigades, ten battalions) supported by artillery. The Spaniards did exceptionally well! Initially they blunted the French attack but eventually by sheer weight of numbers, the Spanish were driven from the field. However, with aid from British/Portuguese units, the Spaniards stubbornly held long enough and inflicted enough damage on the French division that the turning of the British right was not accomplished. Battle of Lucha Pass initial deployment of the French and Allies. Spanish forces deployed on British right facing a French division of two brigades of five battalions each arrayed for the attack.
Spanish initial deployment.
For a some time, the Spaniards held their own. One French brigade had Broken after the Brigade Commander fell to Spanish cannon. Here the Spanish "Ray" battalion charges a faltering French battalion.
The battle is well joined all across the battlefield. With two Spanish battalions routed and dispersed, plus the loss of their 6-pdr battery, the Spanish force is BROKEN.
MiniPigs, don't discount having unreliable units. They are a challenge, they are interesting, they can be surprising, and most certainly FUN! |
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