"Lost Battles of the Vietnam War" Topic

"One theme presented by supporters of the American empire is the U.S. military is invincible and can never lose unless stabbed in the back by impatient politicians. They claim the U.S. military never lost a battle during the entire Vietnam war. On August 30, 2011, President Barack Obama proclaimed to a gathering of veterans: "But let it be remembered that you won every major battle of that war. Every single one." Vietnam vet Senator John McCain repeated this lie in a 2013 article in the "Wall Street Journal." This myth was disputed by America's most decorated officer of that war, Colonel David Hackworth, in his book "About Face." The U.S. military had every advantage, yet mistakes were made and battles lost. Internet research turns up these 112 lost battles of the Vietnam war: …"
Main page
g2mil.com/lost_vietnam.htm

Amicalement
Armand

This "We never lost a battle" chestnut is based on some misunderstanding [often wilful but largely just ignorant] of the evidence.

Supposedly some US General said to General Giap that 'You never defeated us on the battlefield' – and Giap replied something along the lines of 'that may be so, but it is also irrelevant'. This then got transmuted into a North Vietnamese admission that the US won all the battles. Some people still trot this out as if it is an accepted fact.

Ronald Reagan then tried to exploit the natural resentment of Vietnam era veterans and their families for political gain, and further twisted the record. Obama, a man who at least could employ language with precision, had to add 'major' to try to hedge.

Let's be clear. If the US failed in Vietnam it was not the fault of their troops. They did their duty, tried their best, suffered and died in large numbers.

Many blame the politicians. But I blame the generals more. I get that after a career spanning decades it's hard to risk it on a point of principle. But they should have told the truth to the politicians – and they were caught lying.

It's more or less fair to say the major battles were won by US forces. But we know that the PAVN/NLF avoided large scale battles more and more as the war wore on, learning from their mistakes and developing tactics and strategy that avoided the US strengths.

With total air superiority, unlimited weaponry, manoeuverability via choppers or APCs, a professional army, plus some very brave young men, the US certainly should have been expected to win every battle against PLA forces of any significant size……and I think they probably did.

But against an enemy who still fights on regardless and who engages in "asymmetric" warfare…well Skarper said it all.

I for the most part agree with Skarper's post and deadhead's comments … I know many Vietnam Vets, see some of them often.

I also served with many when in ROTC, '75-'79, and then on active duty, '79-'90

They certainly did their duty and beyond.

Supposedly some US General said to General Giap that 'You never defeated us on the battlefield' – and Giap replied something along the lines of 'that may be so, but it is also irrelevant'.

IIRC that was US ARMY COL Harry Summers. I saw the interview on the History Channel, etc. It was not to Giap but one of North Vietnamese's higher ranking leadership, may have even been a civilian. That made that reply as the Paris Peace Talks.

Many blame the politicians. But I blame the generals more.

I blame both … and plenty of blame to go around … Many of the politicians served in WWII. While many of the Generals served there as well as in Korea. Sadly they may have been used to taking high losses at times. That was just the way they generally believed it was done sometimes. E.g. Normandy, many Island invasions in the PTO, etc., etc. I.e. Westmoreland served both in WWII and Korea. And his plan revolved around fighting a war of attrition against the VC/NVA.

That type of warfare has a tendency to be costly to both sides. But again in did not matter to the North's leadership. E.g. the North pushed the VC forward during Tet. As they knew not all VC were hard core Communists, many were just Nationalists. And the North did not want to have to deal with too many of them once the US/SEATO, etc., left. As they knew sooner or later they would leave just like the French before. No matter how many the VC/NVA lost. Which turned out to be very high. When faced with among other things massive US firepower and aggressiveness.

Well said…. thanks.

Amicalement
Armand

@Legion – you are correct the quoted exchange originated with Summers and Tu.

It has become such a cliche that it sometimes gets attached to others including Giap who was better known.

Thanks for the fact check Legion.

Well like and many others I do study this war and others … so I try to factual with all I post.

Errata : That should read – "Well I like many others do study this war and others … so I try to be factual with all I post, etc.

You must have had a good evening mate. Third time lucky on that one.

Oh hang on, I have it. You study this war and other wars etc. I have it now.

"Well I, like many others, do study THIS war and others". Even then, I have had far too good a night out with Mrs F to understand this at first reading. It is this lockdown thing.

Never mind, you still got it right!

Yeah I think the Meds the VA gives me me up sometimes … 🥴😵🤪

But yes we all study many wars … Some just more than others !

"Supposedly some US General said to General Giap that 'You never defeated us on the battlefield' – and Giap replied something along the lines of 'that may be so, but it is also irrelevant'. This then got transmuted into a North Vietnamese admission that the US won all the battles. Some people still trot this out as if it is an accepted fact."

The US military spoke what they believed as their truth, based upon their own confined, self imposed frame of reference. Giap's response was, however, the more cogent and correct. North Vietnam was not fighting to win a military war (which it had no practical chance of winning); it fought a political and propaganda war; the function of the fighting was simply to keep the bleeding and the clock running.

See Ho Chi Minh's early and telling comment made to an American diplomat: "You will kill ten of us, we will kill one of you, but in the end, you will tire of it first."

Events bore out the wisdom of Ho's prediction.

B

They knew they didn't have to win … just not lose … and sooner or later the invaders will get tired of losing blood and treasure. And go home. As had happened before.