"House Rules for Never Mind the Billhooks?" Topic
6 Posts
All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.
Please avoid recent politics on the forums.
For more information, see the TMP FAQ.
Back to the Renaissance Discussion Message Board Back to the Medieval Discussion Message Board
Areas of InterestMedieval Renaissance
Featured Hobby News Article
Featured Link
Top-Rated Ruleset
Featured Showcase ArticleThe next Teutonic Knights unit - Crossbowmen!
Featured Workbench Article
Featured Profile Article
|
Thresher01 | 20 Oct 2020 7:27 p.m. PST |
We ALL know, no plan survives first contact with the enemy, and so I think it is fitting as well for wargaming rules, where virtually everyone(?) tweaks their wargaming rules a bit, adding, ignoring, or otherwise modifying them to suit their needs. So, without further adieu, I ask what tweaks you've thought of, or are considering for these rules? I'm considering seeing if they can be usable for the HYW period, as well as for the Early Italian Wars too (1494 – 1525, or 1530). Might need to add a few tweaks for those also. Thoughts? I'll open with my own pet peeve, the overly compressed game scale, and really, really short ranges for arrows fired from longbows, especially in relation to the long move distances of foot troops. This applies to most, if not all medieval and renaissance rules sets I've seen. Again, I know it's also a time compression thing too, and that each turn represents more than we'd think. Still, I'd like to have at least some semblance of "reality", for missile weapons. Therefore, I'm considering at least quadrupling the range of longbows, crossbows, and guns, since currently in "real scale" the longbow can only fire about 25 yds. (using the conversion of 5mms per foot for 28mm scale minis). That's only 75 feet! While quadrupling only gets us to 100 yds. for the max. range on a longbow, I can live with a little scale compression, and this works out to be about 1/3rd of the "real" effective range of a longbow, which I've read is about 300 yds., or so. If we assume that some archers held their limited supply of arrows tightly, and not firing until the enemy gets to within a much more effective range, we end up with about a 1.5:1, or 2:1 scale compression. Troops on a 6' wide table can be just out of longbow range, which seems reasonable to me. If desired, and you have the room at home, or the local club, a 6" x 12' table would be ideal, and you can fight lengthwise, if needed/desired, for more depth. I don't think this really breaks the rules, since men on foot, moving 8" per phase, and 16" per turn, if moving twice can still close the gap in less than four turns. With the limited arrow supply rule too, archers may hold their fire until the enemy closes to short range, if they are brave enough to do so. I imagine with the increased range, missile armed troops will earn the healthy respect that they so richly deserve. Thoughts? |
EricThe Shed | 20 Oct 2020 10:11 p.m. PST |
Don't understand why you are trying to change ranges? and what you are proposing to range is far more than a tweak. Forget about real distances, movement rates etc. This is a game about toy soldiers trying to recreate a WOTR feel. It is very succesful at generating that brutal thuggish slog that probably typifies the period. Having played a number of small skirmish games and scaled up for some big battles these rules are perfectly balanced for what they need to deliver. In our games the Archers rarely run out of arrows – they are more likely to run away first One simple houserule we have adopted is that veteran archer units get to reroll ones when shooting. |
Midlander65 | 20 Oct 2020 11:23 p.m. PST |
5mm per foot might be the miniatures scale but it isn't the ground scale of the game. I don't think Never Mind the Billhooks has an explicit ground scale but, as each base represents a body of troops and not just the 2, 3 or 4 figures that happen to be mounted on it, 5mm must represent a lot more than a foot. Similarly one round of fire doesn't represent only one arrow. |
MajorB | 21 Oct 2020 9:28 a.m. PST |
Look at it the other way round. In Billhooks, archery range is 15". Equate that to an actual range of 250yds and you get a ground scale of 1in ~= 17 yds. Call it 1in to 20yds for round numbers and it matches your theoretical range of 300 yds. [ I once asked a reenactor what bow range was and without any hesitation he said "220yds" – a furlong. ] If a 12 man unit in 2 ranks has a frontage of (say) 5ins then a unit has a frontage of roughly 100yds. At 1 yd per file and assuming the 12 man unit represents 6 ranks you have a figure ratio of 1 figure to 50 men. A 12 man unit would be 600 men. I somehow don't think that Andy Callan worried about such calculations and just used what felt right to him … |
Arcane Steve | 23 Oct 2020 4:52 a.m. PST |
@thresher – some really interesting comments regarding where the game could go in the future. Watch this space, as they say, a future publication is in the planning stage now and will take in both the periods that you mention as well as a few more! In terms of tweaking the rules, please feel free to amend them as you see fit. The only caveat being to make sure that your mates are happy with the changes! Andy Callan is a self confessed 'rules tweeker' and will have no objection to any amendments that you feel are appropriate to your game. One final point, is that often changing one rule will have unintended consequences in another part of the game. Making Archers too powerful will mean that battles will be won without the two armies ever coming in contact. From the little that we do know about the WOTR, it seems that the battles were in the main, resolved by hand to hand combat. Eric and MajorB are correct. there is no ground scale, time scale or figure ratio. Andy was looking to develop a playable game that reflects some of the period. I would point you in the direction of this interview with him, where you can hear Andy's own view on the game and it's mechanics. YouTube link If you enjoy that, then there is a short series of videos with me as co star, playing through a game. :) I hope that this helps, regards, Steve |
Thresher01 | 27 Oct 2020 11:01 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the info and link. In looking into this further, it appears that longbow units could be up to 10 men deep. Assuming that is correct, then perhaps each row of archers will represent 3 – 5 men deep, assuming a two man depth for most tabletop units in a game. I'm not sure how packed they would be, but thinking perhaps if they were in close ranks, and firing up into the air, you can get one archer for every 3 – 4 feet of depth to the unit, then that means one inch on the tabletop will equal about 10' – 12', and a two row unit of archers will be about 24' deep, or so. Scaling that up, and rounding that off, you get distance of about 300' per foot on the tabletop, or 100 yds. With a bow range of 100 – 300 yds., that means archers could/should be able to fire 12" – 36" on the tabletop, and probably about 24" (200 yds.) or so at effective range. 12" or so at close range. I do get the issue of concerns with play-balance, though with limited ammo for some/many scenarios, that shouldn't be too out of whack, especially if one has the standard mix of about 50% bows and 50% billmen. I suspect that some/many may wish to withhold their fire until the enemy closes, in order to have a better chance of hitting and injuring/killing their opponents. Different scenarios can be tweaked as desired/needed, in order to adjust that as well. |
|