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"What am I doing wrong?" Topic


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10 Oct 2020 11:43 a.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Changed title from "What am I doing wrong" to "What am I doing wrong?"Crossposted to Painting board

10 Oct 2020 5:22 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Crossposted to Pre-Paint Preparation board

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Old Glory Sponsoring Member of TMP11 Oct 2020 8:45 p.m. PST

"die release compound?????"

John the OFM12 Oct 2020 1:36 a.m. PST

If Russ from Old Glory says that no "die release compound" is used, where does that persistent myth come from?

As for soaking overnight in vinegar….
"Lead rot" is lead acetate. Why not accelerate the rot? What irresponsible and pointless advice.

GildasFacit Sponsoring Member of TMP12 Oct 2020 6:59 a.m. PST

Sorry John but that is rubbish. Using an acid treatment on metals is an industry standard method and works well on high lead alloys. You wash the metal after the acid treatment so no acid remains on the figure to promote 'lead rot'.

Lead rot is usually caused by inappropriate storage or failure to cover the surface of the figure completely so that it can be attacked in an acid atmosphere.

farnox12 Oct 2020 11:35 a.m. PST

I've soaked many miniatures in vinegar without issue. I do find however an oily scum forms on the top so there is something to release agents on some miniatures.

Old Glory Sponsoring Member of TMP12 Oct 2020 3:39 p.m. PST

One more time -- gaming since 1975, never washed metal figures in anything, more the a decent painted, painted 1000s upon 1000s of minis from al sorts of manufacturers -- all used heavily and never did any of this nor heard of it.
I wonder if any of the pro painter will weigh in on this ?

Russ Dunaway

von Schwartz12 Oct 2020 4:20 p.m. PST

All I'm saying is that advice came from the then owner and president of GHQ. They were based in uptown Minneapolis near the hobby shop where our old club hung out. I got to know him quite well as well as several of the guys who worked at their competitor, C n'C. That seemed to be standard practice with them, so, good enough for me! Keep in mind, this was back in the late 70s.

PS: Did I not mention to rinse WELL after treatment. No "lead rot" so far in 24 years.

Baranovich01 Jan 2021 2:14 p.m. PST

So wait.

Washing miniatures in dish soap and warm water leaves a "residue" on parts that prevent primer and paint from sticking to it, and that only alcohol can properly remove?

SINCE WHEN?

This sounds like the person is using too much soap and not rinsing them enough, or there is something going on with the brush on primer itself.

I realize there is a legitimate debate about how much adhesion benefit you actually get from washing minis. to remove the supposed "mold release" that might still be present vs. not washing them at all.

I have found that when I didn't wash metal minis. I never had a problem with adhesion. And the one time that I forgot to wash resin parts and primed right over them, there was no problem.

But I'm finding the notion that you should "NEVER" wash minis. because primer and paint won't stick made me do a double take!

Of course you can wash minis! It's probably equally fine to wash minis. in either plain warm water, warm water and dish soap, or water and alcohol, etc.

I find personally that it's really not necessary to wash plastics at all, so I only wash metal and resin, resin in particular.

But I really would like to know where people are getting this idea that washing mini. in something as innocuous as dish soap leaves some kind of insidious film behind that will make primers and paints not stick to the mini. properly.

I have NEVER head of that before this thread.

Baranovich01 Jan 2021 2:22 p.m. PST

I'm nearly 100% convinced this is an issue with the Vallejo brush on primer and has nothing to do with washing the parts. He said he thoroughly rinsed them so I'm thinking it could be the material of the mini. itself.

Some minis. like Reaper Bones and some plastics will resist a brush on primer and you'll see it like "bead up" and resist being spread out.

Or perhaps his primer is working fine but he's applying the paint too hard or maybe he's scrubbing off the paint and primer when trying to drybrush areas of a metal model.

I've had that happen with drybrushing over metal painted with a base coat.

Also, he mentioned using Ceramcoat, which are craft paints. I suspect that plastic and metal minis. craft paints don't stick quite as well as actual acrylic mini. paints.

I could be wrong about that.

But at the end of the day I'm betting that the one thing that is NOT causing it is that he washed them first!

Baranovich01 Jan 2021 2:38 p.m. PST

…so I guess the reason this thread just jumped out at me and made me so upset is because something that's been done for years by countless painters on countless minis. that HELP adhesion, namely washing minis. actually supposedly not only doesn't help but makes adhesion WORSE.

Guys, that's just silly. I've washed hundreds of metal and plastic minis. with warm water and dish soap. Rinsed them off, pat them dry and then let them dry more overnight.

Primed within a couple days of washing them.

Never once, never once had this supposed mysterious, insidious anti-paint sticking film that some of you are expounding on.

Normal Guy Supporting Member of TMP05 Jan 2021 9:11 a.m. PST

Back in the day from another century ago. The guy who taught me miniatures and painting also told me to wash figures in vinegar because it cleaned the figures and the acid corroded the surface slightly which grabbed the paint better. I have never heard of anyone else doing that and I have no idea if that was accurate. Eventually, I stopped doing that because I saw no value in it. For most years of painting I have gone directly to spray primer and then painting. Never any problems. And I have never done hand priming.

khanscom12 May 2021 11:48 a.m. PST

I first heard of the vinegar soak from the instruction sheet included with a Monogram Merite 54mm figure; I tried this and followed with a hot water rinse. The figure was painted with oils, but years later I realized the color was incorrect and repainted with acrylics. This figure sits in a cabinet and after 50 years shows no sign of "lead" rot or other deterioration.

At one point Jack Scruby did use powdered graphite to improve metal flow in molds (rather than talc). That could undoubtedly cause problems with paint adhesion and those figures likely should have been cleaned before painting. Never had a problem with talc.

von Schwartz ver 212 May 2021 3:55 p.m. PST

If Russ from Old Glory says that no "die release compound" is used, where does that persistent myth come from?

The founder and former pres/CEO of GHG

Elenderil06 Jul 2021 4:48 a.m. PST

I'm also in the "I don't wash my figures" camp. I paint mostly 6mm Baccus and Irregular figures with some O8 3mm and Heroic and Ros 6mm and haven't had any issues with any of those manufacturers castings. I normally undercoat with an automotive white primer as it's intended to adhere well to metal, but on occasions where it's to humid to spray I have used a slightly thinner Vallejo white acrylic (top coat not the primer). I have never had an issue with paint lifting.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian20 Jul 2021 9:01 p.m. PST

Maybe just use a can of air (electronics duster) to knock off any talc?

RWindle27 Jul 2021 2:47 p.m. PST

Badger Stynylrez primer for most things. Tamiya spray primer for items that nothing wants to adhere to!

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