"What am I doing wrong?" Topic

"die release compound?????"

If Russ from Old Glory says that no "die release compound" is used, where does that persistent myth come from?

As for soaking overnight in vinegar….
"Lead rot" is lead acetate. Why not accelerate the rot? What irresponsible and pointless advice.

Sorry John but that is rubbish. Using an acid treatment on metals is an industry standard method and works well on high lead alloys. You wash the metal after the acid treatment so no acid remains on the figure to promote 'lead rot'.

Lead rot is usually caused by inappropriate storage or failure to cover the surface of the figure completely so that it can be attacked in an acid atmosphere.

I've soaked many miniatures in vinegar without issue. I do find however an oily scum forms on the top so there is something to release agents on some miniatures.

One more time -- gaming since 1975, never washed metal figures in anything, more the a decent painted, painted 1000s upon 1000s of minis from al sorts of manufacturers -- all used heavily and never did any of this nor heard of it.
I wonder if any of the pro painter will weigh in on this ?

Russ Dunaway

All I'm saying is that advice came from the then owner and president of GHQ. They were based in uptown Minneapolis near the hobby shop where our old club hung out. I got to know him quite well as well as several of the guys who worked at their competitor, C n'C. That seemed to be standard practice with them, so, good enough for me! Keep in mind, this was back in the late 70s.

PS: Did I not mention to rinse WELL after treatment. No "lead rot" so far in 24 years.

So wait.

Washing miniatures in dish soap and warm water leaves a "residue" on parts that prevent primer and paint from sticking to it, and that only alcohol can properly remove?

SINCE WHEN?

This sounds like the person is using too much soap and not rinsing them enough, or there is something going on with the brush on primer itself.

I realize there is a legitimate debate about how much adhesion benefit you actually get from washing minis. to remove the supposed "mold release" that might still be present vs. not washing them at all.

I have found that when I didn't wash metal minis. I never had a problem with adhesion. And the one time that I forgot to wash resin parts and primed right over them, there was no problem.

But I'm finding the notion that you should "NEVER" wash minis. because primer and paint won't stick made me do a double take!

Of course you can wash minis! It's probably equally fine to wash minis. in either plain warm water, warm water and dish soap, or water and alcohol, etc.

I find personally that it's really not necessary to wash plastics at all, so I only wash metal and resin, resin in particular.

But I really would like to know where people are getting this idea that washing mini. in something as innocuous as dish soap leaves some kind of insidious film behind that will make primers and paints not stick to the mini. properly.

I have NEVER head of that before this thread.

I'm nearly 100% convinced this is an issue with the Vallejo brush on primer and has nothing to do with washing the parts. He said he thoroughly rinsed them so I'm thinking it could be the material of the mini. itself.

Some minis. like Reaper Bones and some plastics will resist a brush on primer and you'll see it like "bead up" and resist being spread out.

Or perhaps his primer is working fine but he's applying the paint too hard or maybe he's scrubbing off the paint and primer when trying to drybrush areas of a metal model.

I've had that happen with drybrushing over metal painted with a base coat.

Also, he mentioned using Ceramcoat, which are craft paints. I suspect that plastic and metal minis. craft paints don't stick quite as well as actual acrylic mini. paints.

I could be wrong about that.

But at the end of the day I'm betting that the one thing that is NOT causing it is that he washed them first!

…so I guess the reason this thread just jumped out at me and made me so upset is because something that's been done for years by countless painters on countless minis. that HELP adhesion, namely washing minis. actually supposedly not only doesn't help but makes adhesion WORSE.

Guys, that's just silly. I've washed hundreds of metal and plastic minis. with warm water and dish soap. Rinsed them off, pat them dry and then let them dry more overnight.

Primed within a couple days of washing them.

Never once, never once had this supposed mysterious, insidious anti-paint sticking film that some of you are expounding on.

Back in the day from another century ago. The guy who taught me miniatures and painting also told me to wash figures in vinegar because it cleaned the figures and the acid corroded the surface slightly which grabbed the paint better. I have never heard of anyone else doing that and I have no idea if that was accurate. Eventually, I stopped doing that because I saw no value in it. For most years of painting I have gone directly to spray primer and then painting. Never any problems. And I have never done hand priming.

I first heard of the vinegar soak from the instruction sheet included with a Monogram Merite 54mm figure; I tried this and followed with a hot water rinse. The figure was painted with oils, but years later I realized the color was incorrect and repainted with acrylics. This figure sits in a cabinet and after 50 years shows no sign of "lead" rot or other deterioration.

At one point Jack Scruby did use powdered graphite to improve metal flow in molds (rather than talc). That could undoubtedly cause problems with paint adhesion and those figures likely should have been cleaned before painting. Never had a problem with talc.

If Russ from Old Glory says that no "die release compound" is used, where does that persistent myth come from?

The founder and former pres/CEO of GHG

I'm also in the "I don't wash my figures" camp. I paint mostly 6mm Baccus and Irregular figures with some O8 3mm and Heroic and Ros 6mm and haven't had any issues with any of those manufacturers castings. I normally undercoat with an automotive white primer as it's intended to adhere well to metal, but on occasions where it's to humid to spray I have used a slightly thinner Vallejo white acrylic (top coat not the primer). I have never had an issue with paint lifting.

Maybe just use a can of air (electronics duster) to knock off any talc?

Badger Stynylrez primer for most things. Tamiya spray primer for items that nothing wants to adhere to!

Hello all,
I just want to say that folks are saying to wash and rinse their minis before priming , which I agree with but one needs to do more than just wash and rinse… you need to use a toothbrush or some such device to scrub the minis during the soak and especially the rinse …just rinsing wont do the trick. Its not the soap or the rinse that removes any unwanted stuff, Its the FRICTION applied with the brush that does the job. A soap residue can remain on the min after soaking and just rinsing… unless a scrubbing is done. Soap will help keep the unwanted substance in solution but its the friction of the brush bristles that is the critical factor. Its not the soap that really does the job …its the friction!!! This principle applies to the cleaning of just about anything!

When I worked at a company that stamped out metal parts on a punch press, we used to wash the parts in something similar to rubbing alcohol before sending them off for silver or brass electroplating. Of course the parts might have had a bit of oil on them from the punch press lubricant, but I figured if alcohol was good for metal parts then it should work on tin miniatures.

For a long time I used to wash all of my figures in rubbing alcohol, but I don't do it anymore because I can't see that it makes any difference.

I always use spray primer. The brand doesn't really matter. I've never had a problem with the paint or primer detaching from the metal figures. I suspect that the brush on gesso doesn't bond as well to the metal as the spray on primer as there are different ingredients involved . It seems that spray primer is faster and it gives you a more even coating than you would get with a brush on primer.

Regarding "lead rot". Today's miniatures are largely made with a tin-antimony formulation. There is no lead in metal miniatures for obvious reasons.

Miniature painter.

Never washed metal.

Have seen bits of the mould left in crevices though.

As far as I know metal uses talc for release, so should not be a problem. Some may use a synthetic power or spray release??? This day and age anything's possible.

Some alloys won't paint well. But lead tin and most used by big comps should be no problemo.

I think don't wash them is the place to start.

I think some of these paint issues come from unclean handling.

I always primer-coat, and a good primer coat covers miniatures fine, and seals what's underneath in most instances, unless there's a slurry of grease residue or something on them (like from the chicken wings).

:)))

Just adding to the convo for future viewers:

Reading the replies here and adding my own to them. In summary:

- Wash (alcohol, or soap and water and thoroughly rinsed);

- Spray can primer;

- Paint.

If that doesn't do it, hit with a hardy spray can enamel after you prime but before you paint.

So I just wanted to follow up on this thread. I am not at all doubting that some of you have had adhesion problems after washing metal minis.

But I'm going to stick to my original thought that I believe the adhesion problems are coming from either not rinsing the minis. enough after washing, or it's a particular kind of soap, cleaner or something.

I've washed metal minis. in dish soap and water for years, and both primer and paint stick beautifully.

My other thought it that I don't think brush-on primers always adhere as well as spray primers or airbrush primers.

Applying a primer where the paint is atomized somehow "bites" onto the surface better in my experience. And on the subject of spray priming, I found that airbrush priming is BY FAR the most robust in terms of a strong adhesion to the model.

I do a two-step zenithal where I airbrush a medium gray first, and then a lighter airbrush of white over the gray.

If you're going for a straight-up single color primer I have also found the GW Citadel sprays to be some of the best spray primers out there. Their coverage and adhesion are smooth, solid, and fantastic. Pricey yes, but man they're nice.

But as I said earlier, make sure you rinse the models thoroughly and if possible always use a spray or airbrush primer over a brush-on primer.