"Foreign Legion TO&E (1944)" Topic

Hi,

I'm looking for a TO&E for Foreign Legion units in mid-1944 (Italy & Anvil-Dragoon). I'm especially interested in the 13e DBLE, at squad, platoon and company level.

From what I found, squads were 12 or 13-man strong, with Thompson SMG, Springfield rifles & BAR (maybe the only French unit to use it). But how were those weapons distributed? In which numbers?

Thanks in advance for any help.

MadMat, in Rearming the French, there's some discussion of them trying to get more BARs than US TO&E to replicate some weapon in the 1940 French squad. As I recall, the US official answer was "no" and French divisions received exactly the equipment given to equivalent American divisions--right down to US Flags and copies of the UCMJ or equivalent--but I'd look at a 1940 French squad as a starting point, and consider that a few BAR's might have fallen off a truck at some point.

in Rearming the French

Thanks for the reference, I didn't know about this book. I think I will try to get it ASAP.

but I'd look at a 1940 French squad as a starting point

It is actually what I have done.
In 1940, infantry units only had 1x FM (= automatic rifle, the FM 24/29 in France) per squad. Yet, trying to figure out the distribution of weapons in a 1944 Légion squad had me wondering if they hadn't two BARs instead of one (as per 1940 organization).

there's some discussion of them trying to get more BARs than US TO&E to replicate some weapon in the 1940 French squad

If that is, then they were not trying to replicate the 1940 regular infantry (including Légion)'s TO&En but that of Dragons/Chasseurs Portés which had two FM. "Portés" means "carried by vehicle", meaning motorized infantry.

It could make sense, since the 13e DBLE was part of the 1e DFL (1st Free French Division), which official title was actually 1e DMI (1st Motorized Infantry Division). It was actually the only French infantry division designated as "motorized". Hence the DBLE might have been converted to a "portés" TO&E and thus should have two FM?
That's a good lead for me to investigate, thanks … ;)

Another unit with two FM in 1940 were the "Corps Francs". They were something like early attempts at commando/assault groups, with more SMG (2-4) & FM (2) that regular infantry. Maybe the Légion was organizing some special assault squad within a platoon, with more automatic weapons as was the way with those special squads in 1940?

and consider that a few BAR's might have fallen off a truck at some point

Yes that would be very French: "Système D" (ressourcefulness in the sense of "managing to aquire what's missing, by any mean") has been a very well-regarded and often-applied skill of the French Army since the Napoleonic Wars … ;)
My grand-father told me stories about the way they would "acquire" stuff: exchanging a M1 Carbine (a favourite weapon among Free French) for a case of wine ; or stealing a unwatched US Army jeep only to be reprimanded by their officer … but the jeep stood with their unit anyway and no further sanction was taken. :)

One of the problems associated with automatic weapons is a greater consumption of ammunition. Units may only be allotted a certain amount of ammo and with more auto. Even with the convenience of hauling ammo around in a vehicle, getting more bullets could be problematic.

From what I found, squads were 12 or 13-man strong, with Thompson SMG, Springfield rifles & BAR (maybe the only French unit to use it).

My understanding is that the French were given not only M1903 Springfield rifles, but also M1917 Enfield (sometimes called P17) rifles. I have not found any source of how many of which were provided, but in most cases I can recall of seeing photos of French re-armed troops where I could identify the rifle, I observed Enfields.

I have also seen many images of French re-armed troops that had FM24/29s. These were available in reasonable quantities to the Armee d'Afrique troops in Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, and were frequently retained through the re-org and re-armament process, being quite prized and preferred over BARs, even with the ammunition resupply complications involved.

It might be worth noting that there were several other infantry weapons in US supply that would have been quite familiar to the French, including rifle grenades (to be fired by dedicated grenadiers at the squad level), and 60mm Brandt mortars at the company level. But I can not claim any specific knowledge of specific Foreign Legion unit organizations or equipment.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

My understanding is that the French were given not only M1903 Springfield rifles, but also M1917 Enfield (sometimes called P17) rifles.

I am not very well-versed in rifle recognition, but I have indeed read on some forums about P17 rifles being in use with the DFL.

I have also seen many images of French re-armed troops that had FM24/29s. These were available in reasonable quantities to the Armee d'Afrique troops in Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, and were frequently retained through the re-org and re-armament process, being quite prized and preferred over BARs, even with the ammunition resupply complications involved.

Yes, the BAR didn't get much love from the Free French, that's why I was surprised to identify it without a doubt on Légion pictured.

And indeed, FM 24/29 were still much in use, but I think more with N. African troops (French or colonials).
The "true Free French", that is the original 1st DFL, seem to have gotten other supply sources: BAR & Thompson for the Légion, and Bren (& Sten?) for the BIMP.

Actually the FM24/29 is just a French version of the US BAR. The French tried to get a license to produce BARs but Browning was unwilling to sell one to them. So they made their own based on version.

Actually the FM24/29 is just a French version of the US BAR. The French tried to get a license to produce BARs but Browning was unwilling to sell one to them. So they made their own based on version.

An interesting statement. Can you provide any back-up to it?

My understanding is that the French evaluated WW1 (and immediate post-war) LMGs from several countries, considered the best features of each, and combined that with their army's requirements based on wartime experience in WW1, to create a wholly French design.

And so … a new cartridge, un-rimmed, which was well suited to magazine feeds. A top-mounted magazine, to allow it to be reloaded easily while prone. A vertical box magazine (vs. a horizontal drum) so that it could be carried and fired close to the hip. A bipod for stability, but also a built-in locking mechanism and a fore-grip, so that it could be carried and fired effectively by one man. The bipod mounted far enough back so that it could be reasonably balanced over the for-grip (not particularly front-heavy), even with a relatively heavy barrel to allow reasonable rates of fire before over-heating. Semi- and full-auto so that LMG gunners could engage scattered targets without obviously identifying themselves, and continue to engage targets at least sporadically while allowing the barrel some chance to cool down.

I don't think there was any LMG in 1923 that met such requirements.

To suggest it is a copy of the BAR is like suggesting the M1 Garand is a copy of the Browning SA rifle. I mean, yeah, it was a predecessor, and it probably informed the design. But a copy?

I suppose it's possible, and would be interested in seeing any supporting information.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

The Fusil-mitrailleur Modèle 1924 M29 was the standard light machine gun of the French Army from 1925 until the 1960s and was in use until 2000-2006 with the National Gendarmerie. It fires the French 7.5×54mm round which is equivalent in ballistics and striking power to the later 7.62×51mm NATO (.308 Winchester) and 7.62×54mmR round. A robust and reliable weapon partly derived from the M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) action, the FM 1924 M29 soldiered on, practically without interruptions, for more than 50 years.

It looked like a Bren Gun with a top loading 25 round magazine and a screw in barrel like a BAR.

link

Wolfhag

I would have been a bit more accurate if I had said, made their own influenced by the BAR.

After they did the post war evaluation they decided the BAR was the best of the lot and tried to get the license from Colt.

YouTube link

jdginaz,
Yes, you definitely have to watch out what you say around here.
Nice video.

Wolfhag

That is a pretty good video. Ian does good work -- well researched, well presented, and fun.

It's interesting, though, how different people can take different information away from the same video.

From the video (starting at 3:10, immediately after the background on how they had not reached agreement with Colt for the BAR):

Well, the idea came up from one of the testing officers, "Why don't we take the Chatellerault armory and we'll just design a new gun?" And let's be honest here … they'd just finished a trial of looking at pretty much everything that was available on the market, they're going to take the best elements of everything they've come up with and create a new light machine gun using all of those ideal elements.

I could not get from there to "Actually the FM24/29 is just a French version of the US BAR."

Knowing that they had looked at the BAR, had appreciated the BAR, had even thought the BAR to be preferable to the Hotchkiss, Lewis, Chauchat, and even Vickers-Berthier. is interesting to the story.

But if we look at the influence on the FM24/29, I think it is as much the Vickers-Berthier (a French design licensed to Vickers of the UK) as the BAR that influenced the ultimate design. And certainly the Vickers-Berthier influenced other designs such as the Czech ZB.30 (used by the Romanians) and ZB.33 (licensed by Brno to Enfield and built in modified form as the BrEn).

Ian has a good video on the Vickers-Berthier, an interesting, early and influential LMG as well:
YouTube link

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

The Colt BAR – The Monitor:
YouTube link

Pretty cool.

Wolfhag