Louie N | 02 Oct 2020 8:30 a.m. PST |
I am re-reading the Dune books ahead of the new movie release. I am thinking about shields and weapond in the Dune universe. We know shields stop conventional weapons so fighting is in the form of melee with swords and shields. "The Slow Blade Penetrates the Shield" link So my question is would wearing armor be a benefit in shield fighting. A nice coat of super sci-fi mail armor to go "under" your shield. A simple breast plate? Why is that not common? food for thought. Thanks |
John Leahy | 02 Oct 2020 8:54 a.m. PST |
Perhaps the shields prevent the wearer from doing so. |
Garand | 02 Oct 2020 10:17 a.m. PST |
It could be that for most occasions, adding conventional armor under a shield does not add any further benefits. For example, in the Late Middle Ages, knights & sergants stopped using shields, because the extra benefit shields gave were minimal compared to the benefit of using a 2=handed chopper. Body armor had advanced to such a point. It could be in the Dune universe that there is no great advantage to using conventional armor, especially if you are trained to fight "proper". Damon. |
Eumelus | 02 Oct 2020 11:21 a.m. PST |
The real answer is that Frank Herbert didn't think through any of his technology. He wanted swords with his spaceships because swords are cool, so he ginned up a forcefield dodge that, as you have noted, doesn't really solve the problem. What about flamethrowers? What about poison gas? What about land mines? What about armored vehicles that, slowly, crush enemy troops? What about explosives on poles? What about clouds of hunter-seekers? Give the matter some thought and you'll probably come up with other work-arounds for the shields. And don't even try to think about the nonsense of the laser-shield interaction causing a mutual-kill explosion, and how easy that loophole would be to exploit. The only way to enjoy DUNE is not to think about it too much, the same way Herbert wrote it. |
Earl of the North | 02 Oct 2020 11:45 a.m. PST |
I'm a huge fan of Dune, but the problem with the shield + laser = Nuclear explosion has always stopped me getting to interested in gaming it. The problems with how shields are basically immune to everything but lasers has been handled by the games simply ignoring the shields, the movie/mini series mentioning it but not really going into details and in the case of the Lynch movie adding sonic weapons. The new film has made me look again and Warlord's Freeborn make good Fremen so I'm experimenting again with the setting. The answer on armour is yes, plate armour should be the order of the day for professional armies and really laser weaponry should have been abandoned if your going to have everybody running around with these sort of energy shields. |
Rudysnelson | 02 Oct 2020 1:20 p.m. PST |
From the movies, one type of shield by the locals was a small force field. Molded solid body armor would blunt a blade unless it was a vibrating blade. I would think that a traditional shield in a future setting would be a molded composite rather than a common piece of metal or wood. |
Stryderg | 02 Oct 2020 1:42 p.m. PST |
I thought I read somewhere that the shield was almost skin-tight and didn't leave much room for armor. And who wants to walk around in armor all day when they can have a shield with the simple flick of a wrist. |
StarCruiser | 02 Oct 2020 1:49 p.m. PST |
|
Zephyr1 | 02 Oct 2020 2:43 p.m. PST |
"And don't even try to think about the nonsense of the laser-shield interaction causing a mutual-kill explosion, and how easy that loophole would be to exploit." Yep, a grenade made out of pen lasers & prisms (with a few seconds delay), toss it toward target(s), enjoy the fireworks show… ;-) |
Rudysnelson | 02 Oct 2020 3:10 p.m. PST |
I was thinking of the early movies not the recent one. |
ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa | 03 Oct 2020 4:20 a.m. PST |
IIRC from the original book the lasgun / shield interaction was a risk rather than a certainty – though the prequal books FWIW seem to treat it as more of a certainty and suggest that shields are pretty expensive. Also the lasguns do crop up as personal weapons in the prequals as does personal armour IIRC – not that its much use against lasguns. A number of projectile weapons like Maula pistols also crop up in Dune. Finally is also the 'art of kanely', which circumscribes military operations. Most other games designers seem to assume that most military action is small scale objective raids and other forms of low intensity combat where heavy armour would be more of a hinderance than a help. I agree that Dune doesn't necessarily hang together to well as mil sci-fi. |
Insomniac | 03 Oct 2020 4:43 a.m. PST |
Maybe the use of armour, when wearing a shield, was seen as unchivalrous or cowardly? |
robert piepenbrink | 03 Oct 2020 7:26 a.m. PST |
Thinking about Dune rationally will only lead to splitting headaches. After a while, you'll start asking yourself why these people aren't boiled like lobsters in their stillsuits. I have the ANALOG serial version, and you should read the letters to the editor. |
Parzival | 03 Oct 2020 10:14 a.m. PST |
Dune is a Space Opera, not science fiction. You go with what the book says is the case, and don't try to apply any sensible physics or sociological consideration to it. It's like Barsoom, Star Wars, Flash Gordon, et al.— just enjoy ‘em, and don't ask too many questions! So, no, there is no body armor worn under a personal shield. Why? "There is no why!" Lasguns and shields cause nuclear explosions. Why? "There is no why!" The stillsuits allow for body cooling while still completely recovering all sweat and not overheating the water. How? "There is…" Turns red, huffs, looks significantly towards a nearby Sardaukar. The soldier nods and slips aside briefly. (Snick. Burble. Thud.) "Anybody else have an annoying question?" |
Earl of the North | 03 Oct 2020 1:24 p.m. PST |
The nuclear reaction between shield and laser is a certainty, the only variable seems to be whether the laser or shield explode first. It doesn't really make much sense that they have built there militaries around shields when everybody apparently knows the danger. But as has been said, he wasn't writing Military Sci-fi. |
Earl of the North | 04 Oct 2020 3:07 a.m. PST |
To correct myself, I think its not so certain in the first book. It depends on the level the shield is set at (the shield can be set at a level as to not allow gasses, including oxygen to penetrate the shield), seems like he dropped that distinction as the series went on. |