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"Defeat" Topic


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678 hits since 12 Sep 2020
©1994-2020 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse12 Sep 2020 9:15 p.m. PST

Well done!

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Main page
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Amicalement
Armand

Bill N13 Sep 2020 5:21 a.m. PST

It is well done. It is also F&IW, not AWI.

Oberlindes Sol LIC Supporting Member of TMP13 Sep 2020 10:34 a.m. PST

Very good work!

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse13 Sep 2020 3:11 p.m. PST

Happy you like it boys! (smile)

I know about F&IW…. not sure if they can managed for AWI…


Amicalement
Armand

42flanker14 Sep 2020 12:55 p.m. PST

What ever his faults, as I recall Braddock did think to have the troops issued with small clothes of Osnaburg linen and light marching gaiters, in an attempt to ease the task of marching through the Pennsylvania woods in high summer. (Shame about the lack of scouts). These poor fellows rather look like they got caught in a little known setback on the field of MInden.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse15 Sep 2020 1:16 p.m. PST

Thanks!.

Amicalement
Armand

historygamer16 Sep 2020 7:14 a.m. PST

"light marching gaiters…"

Okay 42nd, you are going to have to expand on that, as that is term I've never heard of before. ;-)

Braddock made many changes, both equipment-wise (ahead of his time), and tactically in how he re-arranged the firings and formations used on the march. In many ways, he was about 20 years ahead of his time. But he had poor troops to work with, and little time to train them. It was nothing short of a mircale he got as far as he did.

42flanker16 Sep 2020 1:36 p.m. PST

@Historygamer – not pipe-clayed white parade gaiters as worn by the models in the diorama? In fact, IIRC, hadn't brown or grey marching gaiters already been adopted for campaign sur le continent ?

I also doubt there was much curled or powdered hair to be seen on the road to Fort Duquesne.

Bill N16 Sep 2020 5:49 p.m. PST

Braddock also had, for a European army, a terribly inadequate supply train. Can't remember the source but it seems that both Washington and Braddock had a hard time securing adequate wagons to move supplies up from the head of navigation at Alexandria.

As late as the AWI rivers and coastal shipping were the primary ways of moving goods around, with wagons being used for relatively shorter hauls from points of navigation to the final destination. The owners of what wagons there were available were almost certainly reluctant to risk their source of income on a venture into the wilderness where their investment might easily be destroyed.

historygamer17 Sep 2020 8:44 a.m. PST

42nd – Yeah, I hate being too critical of diaramas posted on here, especially when done by others than the OP. Brown seemed to be worn for this campaign, though later ones saw more black, then a move to wool and Indian leggins in 1759. Blue wool disappeared, so sometimes green was worn.

There were a number of nits with the figures/paintings. I try keep my tongue sometimes. :-)

historygamer17 Sep 2020 8:48 a.m. PST

Bill N:

Spot on. What looked good in the Duke's drawing room on London turned out to be completely unrealistic on the groud. The goal for Braddock was to get to Fort Niagara before fall. Even today, that is a very long drive from Alexandria to Fort Niagara, having done it a few times myself.

If you read the Cubbison book on the Forbes campaign, you can see why Forbes chose to move from Philly instead of VA.

In regards to the AWI and wagons, it certainly seems like the Crown found all they wanted when the vacated Philly in the summer of 1778. How long was that wagon train? Very. :-)

Bill N17 Sep 2020 11:09 a.m. PST

It helps when you have a large enough pile of gold, plus the threat to seize it without compensation if the owner isn't cooperative.

I don't believe I have read Cubbison. Will try to put it on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

42flanker17 Sep 2020 11:55 a.m. PST

@history gamer, fair enough but it mystifies me, what with the considerable effort and skill that goes into sculpting and painting these figures when it seems the artists to have that much interest in engaging with the event depicted in historical terms, either factually or imaginatively with respect to the probabilities. What is the appeal, I ask myself, ye ken? I am indeed a terrible person to watch films with. However, I don't think observing that smart hair-do's are not very likely at the end of a long wilderness march is nit-picking, really.

Wagons- The perennial problem of insufficient civilian wagonry was solved during the AWI by British officers in New York investing in a wagon fleet which they then hired out to the QMG dept, including suitable compensation for wagons damaged or lost. Those who invested did very well out of it. The fact that this included Howe's QMG himsself, Sir William Erskine led to accusations of graft which Erskine defended successfully in the course of two govt enquiries after he returned back home in 1779.

historygamer17 Sep 2020 3:01 p.m. PST

We'll, Braddock's defeat took place in July, so why the fall foliage?:-)

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP17 Sep 2020 4:53 p.m. PST

Braddock's expedition was like Market Garden. 90% successful, except for that bit at the end.
He just needed better PR!
But being dead, maybe he had no more use for good PR.

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP17 Sep 2020 7:44 p.m. PST

Has no one brought up the agony of defeat?
I'll get my hat…

historygamer17 Sep 2020 8:28 p.m. PST

Good one. :-)

42flanker18 Sep 2020 2:01 a.m. PST

"We'll know bettr next time…"

historygamer18 Sep 2020 1:49 p.m. PST

Except at Grant's Defeat LoL

historygamer18 Sep 2020 8:53 p.m. PST

And why wasn't that battle instead named as some sort of Indian victory? LoL

42flanker20 Sep 2020 10:41 a.m. PST

'why wasn't that battle instead named as some sort of Indian victory? '

"He aint got no papers of his own.
He's 'asn't got no medals or awards.
So, we must certify the skill he's shown…"

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