"Will The U.S. Military Leave Incirlik Air Force Base" Topic

… In Turkey And Relocate To The Greek Island Of Crete?

"Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan's "disturbing" foreign policy has spurred U.S. officials to intensify preparations to withdraw from Incirlik Air Force base, according to a senior Republican senator and American analysts.

"We don't know what's gonna happen to Incirlik," Wisconsin Sen. Ron Johnson, who chairs the Senate Foreign Relations subcommittee for Europe, told the Washington Examiner. "We hope for the best, but we have to plan for the worst."

"We don't know what's gonna happen to Incirlik," Wisconsin Sen. Ron Johnson, who chairs the Senate Foreign Relations subcommittee for Europe, told the Washington Examiner. "We hope for the best, but we have to plan for the worst."…"

Main page
link

Amicalement
Armand

I bet the nukes are already gone.
Or, they would be if I were in charge.

I once had a nice couple weeks at Incirlik back in the late 90's. People were friendly, the restaurants served bread with honey as an appetizer. I think the US use to have air bases in Greece. Ah, the ebb and flow of history.

Yep, time to be leaving, nothing good ahead for Turkey on the present course.

There's always RAF Akrotiri on Cyprus?

I think the nukes have been gone for some time. The less secular and more fundamentalist religious the Turks became the less confidence, etc., the US had become of them, I think. Based on all the events going on in the Mid East, etc. Even if at one point the Turks had the second largest Army in NATO. Second to the US. That still may be the case with many NATO members downsizing their militaries.

Again IMO I don't want nukes anywhere near religious fundamentalists. Even if much of the nation may not that way. But there always seems there is some of lunatic fringe is around. The borders in that region appears to be pretty porous, etc. Especially when it comes to Nukes … Err on the side of caution, IMO.

We should.

Lots of airbases and islands/land in the region to relocate to, and that are much more faithful allies.

Yes, the Turks as allies is a bit questionable now …

(smile)

Amicalement
Armand

Even if at one point the Turks had the second largest Army in NATO. Second to the US. That still may be the case with many NATO members downsizing their militaries.

Tursk still have the second biggest military in NATO, and is as large as the next 2 combined (France and Germany).

Turks may have the second biggest military in number, but it's a little bit like the large Sadam Hussein army, not very useful against technologically more advanced adversaries.

And we have Bubba Clinton to blame for forcing the Turkish Military to turn power back to the the Islamic Party of Turkey.

Tursk still have the second biggest military in NATO, and is as large as the next 2 combined (France and Germany).

Thanks for that intel. Again with all the NATO downsizing that should be no surprise.

Turks may have the second biggest military in number, but it's a little bit like the large Sadam Hussein army, not very useful against technologically more advanced adversaries.

Yes I had read/heard that before. It does not surprise me either that they are not a real effective combat force. Like many of the militaries in that region/former members of the Ottoman Turk Empire, before WWI.

E.g. based on their performance vs. ISIS in Syria in the recent past. They really don't understand modern mobile combined arms warfare. Or at least how to execute it in the field. Again like many in the region.

However, during the Korean War they had about an Inf Bde sized force in country. At anytime during the conflict under the UN Command. And they were said to be "somewhat" effective, etc., vs. the North Koreans and PRC on several occasions. They were said to be very tough and brave.
link
Plus the Turks and Greeks, both NATO members, still are not very friendly. A situation which has been going on for many decades and even centuries for that matter.

I'm not so sure the Turkish military is that combat ineffective in Syria.
In early 2020 a Turkish offensive mostly using drones did heavy damage to the Assadist Syrians and the Russians didn't do much to protect their allies.

I copied this from ACIG, a military forum run by Tom Cooper.

Turkey's drones provide crucial edge in Syria – analysts say

Domestically produced drones have become a symbol of national pride as Turkey seeks to shed its reliance on outside powers and become a leading defence exporter.

Turkish news channels have been dominated this week by a steady stream of black-and-white drone footage showing the destruction of Syrian regime targets in rebel-held Idlib.

Domestically produced drones have given Turkey a vital edge in its latest operation against Syrian regime forces.

"Turkey's use of drones in this operation is unprecedented in modern military history," said defence analyst Arda Mevlutoglu.

"Their effective use seems to have changed the dynamics of the Syrian civil war and diplomatic manoeuvres."

Armed drones have proved especially important in Idlib, where Turkish fighter jets would be at risk due to Russia's control of the air space.

Moscow appears not to be targeting Turkish drones, seeking to avoid further escalation ahead of talks between presidents Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Vladimir Putin later this week.

Drone strikes have killed dozens of Syrian regime troops over the past week after Turkey launched an operation into Idlib, aimed at pushing back a regime assault that has forced nearly a million civilians to flee their homes.

It marks the culmination of years of investment and evolution for Turkey, whose military has become one of the most experienced users of drones.

Domestically produced drones have made Turkey much more effective on the battlefield in Syria, said Ozgur Eksi, editor-in-chief of C4Defence magazine.

Turkish forces had destroyed more than 100 regime tanks in just a few days in Idlib, he added.

"If they tried to do this without drones, in any other way, it would have taken longer and there would have been a greater loss of Turkish life."

'High precision'

The Idlib operation is the first time Turkey has used drones in large numbers simultaneously for artillery and surveillance, said Mevlutoglu.

They can also identify and illuminate targets for fighter jets operating from across the border.

"This provides high precision long-range strikes, enabling Turkey to bypass the Idlib airspace yet managing to inflict heavy casualties to Syrian Arab Army targets," Mevlutoglu said.

Much of the credit for Turkey's drone industry has gone to Selcuk Bayraktar, an engineer who trained in the United States.

Turkey has an estimated 94 TB2 drones produced by his family's company, Baykar, according to Dan Gettinger, of the Center for the Study of the Drone at Bard College, New York.

The TB2 is a small drone that can carry limited munitions, but enough to destroy armoured vehicles. It has been used in Idlib alongside the Anka drone from the state-owned Turkish Aerospace.

Bayraktar on Tuesday told CNN Turk broadcaster Turkey had become "one of the most advanced countries in terms of operational ability" in the field of drone technology.

Military information company Jane's reported last year that the Turkish government had promised around $100 USD million for the development of Baykar's TB2 and Akinci drones.

The Akinci, first flight-tested in December, can fly up to 40,000 feet for 24 hours, and carry more munitions.

Turkey is the "leader of a group of new nations that are investing a lot in this technology and trying to make an impact," Gettinger said.

Growing industry

Turkey's interest in drones dates back to the 1990s, and a series of bad experiences with external suppliers demonstrated that it could not rely on others.

President Erdogan took direct control over the defence industry in 2018 ahead of the shake-up of the presidential system. He has made it a priority for Turkey to become one of the top 10 defence industry exporters in time for the republic's 100th anniversary in 2023.

Self-sufficiency is also crucial for Turkey as its relations have become strained with NATO partners.

There is also money to be made.

Turkish drones have been exported to Qatar and Ukraine, and a deal is believed to be close with Tunisia, Gettinger said, while some have also been sent to support the UN-recognised government in Libya.

It is also working with Indonesia, Pakistan, Ukraine and others to help them build their own drones using Turkish technology.

"Turkey has very aggressively marketed its drones overseas. It takes great pride in its drone industry," Gettinger said.

Good intel ! Thanks ! I just remember a number of reports that a number of Turkish MBTS, including German Leos being destroyed by ISIS, etc. And that they didn't really fight combined arms that well. Of course I was not there so I could only rely on what I read or heard in the media and elsewhere. But l just looked it up, this is a good link on the topic … E.g. the Turks lost 14 M60s and 8 Leos 2s …

Also from the link –

Incirlik Air Base
On October 13, 2014, Turkey denied the United States to use Incirlik Air Base for attacking ISIS militants in Syria.[341] The US has been frustrated that its efforts to build an international coalition to tackle ISIS forces from the air have been partly hobbled by the difficulty of getting Turkey engaged.[342]

As a sidebar, I do remember in 2014 that when running into ISIS the Iraqis ended up abandoning 42 M1 MBTs, 52 M109 155 SPFA, and about 2300 HMMWVs. ISIS didn't have the ability to use or maintain those AFVs. So took the MGs, etc. then destroyed them. But they did use some of the HMMWVs as mobile suicide bombers.

But good to see the Turks did KO 100 of Assad's tanks with drones primarily, I take it ? So it looks like the Turks know how to use drones effectively. But still not too sure on the ability to execute combined arms ops though ? Seems it didn't matter at some point.

Also proves what many have said including myself[albeit no expert!], that more and more Drones will be seen and contributing to recon and combat ops. As time goes on more AI, robotics, etc. will be on the battlefield.