"Anti tank guided missile over water?" Topic

While working on some rules I seem to remember that early ATGMs couldn't be fired over water. Am I right and are the newer gen ones able to fire over water?.
Any help appreciated.

I know some modern ATGMs have been used over water, because I recall news stories about it.

IIRC the reason some ATGMs cannot be used over water is because they are wire guided & the water shorts out the system. If the missile is not wire guided, it probably can be used over water effectively, FREX the AT-2 is radio guided. In addition the Hellfire is laser or MM wavelength radar guided so would not be affected by water (indeed some ships mount Hellfires for small craft defense).

Damon.

Wire guided do not like water or pylons,

Tally Ho!

Thanks gentlemen. That was quick, I posted me question and went for a quick bite to eat and Bobs your uncle!.
Regards,
Paul.

I am/was under the impression this only applied to early ATGMs, and that the later ones are/were able to be fired over water.

That Israeli warship that was attacked close to shore I thought was targeted by a Russian-made ATGM, a number of years back. Perhaps I'm wrong, and it was a drone.

I think I recall reading that at least some ATGMs could be fired over at least 1/2 kilometer, or mile of water, with no negative effects. If so, surely that eliminates the issue for more rivers in Europe.

The wires are coated in plastic, so should be resistant/immune to water, I would think.

If not, firing them in foggy, drizzly, or rainy conditions could be a problem too, right?

Our Shillelagh missiles from the M551 Sheridan and M60A2 were wire guided. Shooting them over water the hindrance was as much the reflection of the sun/water obscuring the gunners sight as it was the wire. Though it was not recommended. Shooting at an elevated target was a chance some took. We mainly just used HEP rounds.
The scouts Dragons were fire and forget and not affected by water.

It's a potential problem with wire guided missiles due to signal loss. It's been a long time, but IIRC, there's a formula in the TOW operators manual for how far one can fire a TOW across water. IIRC, it wasn't a real problem unless you were trying to fire a TOW across hundreds of meters of water. I filed the issue in my brain as don't worry about it unless trying to fire across a body of water like the Rhine River or some lake.

pjm

I used to be a TOW Platoon Leader (many moons ago). I don't remember the specifics, but water affects the guidance system of wire controlled AT missiles.

That is what I remember too. Probably the same with M47 Dragon MAW but they are pretty short ranged compare to TOWs. 1000m vs. 3750m for TOWs.

No reason to speculate with google at my finger tips. Technical Manual 9-1425-472-12 for the TOW Weapon System, Guided Missile System, M220A1, with changes 1 through 4, dated Jan 80, pages 2-333 through 2-338 discuss over water operations. Short answer is – it depends on the situation, and there four graphs to use if you're looking for inane detail. Worst case example, the TOW can be fired over at least 800 meters of water.

pjm

Yea, that sounds about right.

Thought I had read that somewhere, AND that is probably where, since the range quote sounds familiar.

Great stuff, I knew this would be the place to ask. So I reckon that Sagger and the like would be no good over water but TOW and 2nd and 3rd gen missiles would be OK.

As Nick said pylons would be a no-no for wire guided missiles too.
Thanks again.

Short answer is – it depends on the situation, ,

It always does, as I have said before as I was trained… "It depends on the terrain & situation." …

and there four graphs to use if you're looking for inane detail. Worst case example, the TOW can be fired over at least 800 meters of water.

Good intel … I remember hearing something like that during training decades ago in my long passed youth …

Thank the gods of war for the net !

The wires are under tension as they unspool and it takes them a little while to fall to the ground (or water surface). How far the missed travels before the wire touches down is a function of the missile's velocity, relative elevations, depths and angle of stream banks, etc. With some missiles, a particularly clever operator can loft the missile for part of its flight, then drop it back to target LOS.

Vampires can't cross flowing water. Same thing.

With some missiles, a particularly clever operator can loft the missile for part of its flight, then drop it back to target

Had heard similar from gunship pilots say they could arch the missile a bit to get a little more range too.

Had a M47 MAW Dragon rd. with Training warhead go about 100m then the wire snapped. Took off straight up then crashed further down range. The manufacture, IIRC, Raytheon or Hughes(?), wanted us to send the wire back to them to see what went wrong. Never heard anything after that.

The AT-3 Sagger would be ok initially, as it flew up before guidance kicked in, so it would possibly be able to hit things above 500m (its minimum range)until the wires dropped into the water?

I'd believe just like the TOW or Dragon any wire-guided missile would be ok until and if touched the water. As the farther out the missile traveled the wire might tend to dip.

A friend of my was a UH-1 Huey Pilot in Vietnam when they started to get TOWs. He mentioned you had to be careful/aware about the wire may get snagged by trees, foliage, etc. But again this is when the first TOWs were being issued and fired from UH- 1 Hueys. Before even AH-1s became in country or at least in numbers.

Ideally the TOW[or other wire guided missiles] would be great in the flat open terrain of the desert. Or one of the areas the TOW was initially designed for. The plains of West Germany. Where in many places there are villages, towns, etc. That were generally about 2000-4000m apart with open fields of crops in between.

Where the TOW gunners could be hidden covering those open areas. Which would be one of the main avenues of approach. For the massive waves of USSR/WP armor.