altfritz | 24 Aug 2020 6:15 a.m. PST |
Can anyone tell me – or point me to a source that can inform me – where Roman cohort command personnel deployed in battle formation? The Centurion was in the first rank, right hand file. The Optio was behind the ranks keeping the men in order. There is also a Tessare (sp) who is apparently the equivalent of a sergeant-major. He appears to stand front rank, left-hand file – correct? Some sources say the Eagle and the Vexillia were in the front rank, presumably center. But these sources seem to be from early Republican times, and not from the Imperial Roman organization. There is an often used quote about the standard being hurled into the ranks of the enemy and the legionaires ordered to go get it. Where does the horn-blower stand? Presumably behind the ranks. The Imagifier presumably is located with the Legate? The horn blowers purpose is to inform the men to look to there standard as it was used to issue tactical commands. But if the standard is in the front rank, the Centurian to the far right and the Optio (the 2IC) behind the lines, how did that work? Perhaps before battle was joined the command element was all together, directing the maneuvers? Anyone have any insight into this? |
Asteroid X | 24 Aug 2020 4:10 p.m. PST |
All good questions. I'm thinking many are just used to the wargame standard of centurion in the centre with a standard bearer on one side and the musician on the other. |
altfritz | 24 Aug 2020 5:06 p.m. PST |
I'm trying to base my cohorts more historically accurately. I'm wondering if an Osprey has that level of detail (assuming that the information is known) or maybe something like one of the Montvert books. There seems to be that level of detail for the Macedonian phalanxes, for example. |
Asteroid X | 24 Aug 2020 10:41 p.m. PST |
I'm not sure. I've found a lot of things in Osprey books that are not the accurate. I guess it really depends upon the authorship. There are a few of them in Rome and a new(er) one on standards. It certainly can't hurt to read them. (Although it certainly could help drain a bank account unless you can get them at the library or borrow from a friend) One would think there should be a lot known about the Roman Empire. It's wading through the volumes of information. The Warhammer Ancient Battles supplements have always had a lot of information in them but there was never a separate one about Rome. Would it have gone into that much detail? Possibly not. There are a lot of works on the Roman army. Books as well as scholarly papers (google scholar searches will help find those). Due to the popularity of the Roman army, one would think there are a number of people who would have an idea. Perhaps Simon Miller (BigRedBat)? |
Hagar the Horrible | 25 Aug 2020 3:39 a.m. PST |
Hope I am not getting into semantics here, but you seem to be mixing cohorts and centuries. Most of what you say sounds about right for a century. Have a look at some of the books by Adrian Goldsworthy. As for a cohort, apparently the existing historical records don't really say much about it, so it's a bit of a mystery. You would think a Legate would sound right, but it is an assumption. |
altfritz | 25 Aug 2020 4:47 a.m. PST |
The WRG Book on the Imperial Roman army is quite good in that it describes the sources used and how the descriptions were arrived at. For one, there appears to be a huge variation of uniforms, which had to be distilled to arrive at those printed in the book. Unfortunately it doesn't cover the lower level formation [in battle] in the same level of detail. This may mean that the information in not known. Or was not when the WRG book was published. re. Century/Cohort. Yes, my error. I am looking for century organization/deployment, which I will then use to represent a cohort in a more interesting way. I could arbitrarily decide to place the Signifier in the middle of the front rank – Warhammer or KoW style – or behind the ranks, but that is a bit of a cop out, IMO. I am trying to find out if it is known how it was actually placed. |
Asteroid X | 25 Aug 2020 7:55 a.m. PST |
A while back I was looking for information on the antesignani. TMP link I was directed off-site. This is more of a gaming site (ie rules, models) whereas your question is more historical. There is a Roman Army Forum, Ancient Warfare journal. Even the Total War forum touches on a lot of historical aspects of formation. |
korsun0 | 25 Aug 2020 11:34 a.m. PST |
I have read that the signifer stood on the right with the centurion and cornicen and that their casualty rate was consequently similar to centurions. Conversely I've read the signifer was in the third rank in the centre with troops in front called ante signan. The centurion on the right, optio patrolling the rear.The cornicen stood with the centurion and the signifer would watch for commands from the centurion. Third option was the centurion, signifer and cornicen stood in the centre, centurion in front rank, other two behind, optio to the rear. Unfortunately, this was from the net, and having lost a pile of stuff in a PC crash I can't give links :( Personally, I always think the centurion needs to be where he could be seen/heard by the signifer who would then signal his orders with the cornicen drawing attention to the standard. In battle they should be in close proximity. But, who knows….. |
Asteroid X | 25 Aug 2020 6:07 p.m. PST |
I wonder if there is any period art depicting Centuries, Cohorts or Legions in combat? |
Damion | 25 Aug 2020 9:59 p.m. PST |
No way the signifer or cornicern were in the front ranks, they'd create a weak point for the unit as they lack the larger shield and are encumbered by a non-weapon. In the classical period they often have a smaller shield to defend themselves as a last resort but they're not for frontline fighting. |
Brownand | 26 Aug 2020 4:24 a.m. PST |
Didn't had the cohort 6 standards (each century did have one)? |
altfritz | 26 Aug 2020 4:35 a.m. PST |
My understanding is that each century had a Signifer bearing a standard used to signal orders to the unit. The horn was apparently blown to alert the legionaries to pay attention to the Signifer. |