"Heraldry detective work - Claude de Vaudrey?" Topic

I'm researching the War of Burgundian Succession (1477-1493). Lots of interesting names have popped up which have led me down further rabbit holes researching the French and Burgundian nobility of the 15th century. I'm trying to track down the heraldry for a few of them, and perhaps there are people here who can help me.

The first on the list is Claude de Vaudrey – he was one of the many 'rebel' lords of the Franche-Comte who rose up against the French occupation in the name of Mary of Burgundy. He seems to have played a leading role in this conflict from 1477-1479. I believe he was captured by the French in '79, and presumably ransomed, as I have found other references to him fighting for the 'Burgundian' cause of Maximilian over the next many years. He seems to have been a famous tourney knight – if you google him, almost all the results refer to him in this context, and there is a suit of armour from the late 15th or possibly early 16th century that apparently was his. I believe he died in 1515 – I have found a few references to him dying earlier, but I think they are erroneous.

The Vaudrey family keep popping up in the '77-'79 Franche-Comte war – at the very least there is a Guillaume de Vaudrey as well who fought alongside him, and I've found one reference to Herman de Vaudrey. I've managed to piece together this family tree, or at least the part of it that is relevant for my research. As you can see he is of a second branch of the family. Guillaume is his uncle, and Herman is a cousin. The head of the family is presumably the 'Courlaou' branch, though I've found no reference to them in this war, and don't know which side they fought on if any). All the branches shown died out around this time except the last one. There are also some earlier branches of the family not shown here.

So anyway, the heraldry.

This is the arms of the Vaudrey family.

A google image search for 'Claude de Vaudrey' brings up this:

I don't know what the source is, and I can't read the text, but it looks like a good contender doesn't it, if you look at his position on my family tree? The gold 'label' would make sense for a member of the second branch, right?

Thoughts?

The illustration is from the Grünenberg Armorial, and in it,
Grünenberg claims to have met Claude de Vaudrey, and the text in your image does name him – see heraldica.hypotheses.org/4702 and PDF link page 202, item 1146 – "hie der her her claude von wadri der fürnems…"

So yes, I do think these are the right arms.

Ah that's great, thanks!
Interestingly your source is one that gives his date of death as 1483. Everywhere else I find say 1515 or later.

link has a couple of references to Claude de Vaudrey's will dated 1515, and the tonlet armour in Vienna ascribed to him is dated c.1495 – link.

So maybe Grünenberg was mistaken about his death in 1483?

Perhaps there could be 2 Claudes, a father & son (or 2 brothers with the same name) which could explain the 2 death dates of 1483 and 1515. A 32-year difference is a fair number of years.

I did wonder about two Claudes, but I haven't found any supporting evidence and they don't show up in the family tree in Charlie's first post.

Here is two additional informations :

On Claude de Vaudrey's genealogy :

« Le grand dictionnaire historique ou le mélange curieux de l'histoire sacrée et profane », volume 10, page 495, « Branche de l'Aigle » ref. XII Claude de Vaudrey
link

On the coat of arms of Claude de Vaudrey :

« Histoire de Pierre Terrail, dit le chevalier Bayard, sans peur et sans reproche », page 51, footnote (f).
link
Armes : « Emmanchées de gueules et d'argent »
Devise and war cry : « J'ai Valu, Vaux et Vaudrai », which means : « I was worth, I worth, and I will be worth », a play on words : « Vallu » and « Vaux », two fields of Claude de Vaudrey and his name.

The first tournament in which the Chevalier Bayart participated and where he won, was organized by Claude de Vaudrey.

Yes the idea of two Claudes is a possibility, but I'm not convinced. The 'dictionaire historique' linked by both GurKhan and T Labienus has a detailed run-down of the extended Vaudrey family, and there only seems to be one, who made a will in 1515. Note that book is the source I used to make the family tree I posted.

You think it's likely Grünenberg got it wrong?
I've also found one or two references to Claude and Guillaume de Vaudrey being brothers, but the 'Dictionaire' makes them nephew and uncle.

@T Labienus – good find on the tourney. Do we know what year that was? Also am I right in that it lists his arms as just the normal Vaudrey ones, no label?

So here's a general heraldry question – for a large family like this, is it likely that each living member has their own unique arms? Could it be that several of them used the same basic family arms? Would that be reserved just for the head of the family, or would Claude (who seems to be from a secondary branch) be able to use it? What if he was the only famous knight among them, and all his cousins were effectively 'nobodies'?

The tournament opening was on july, 20th, 1494, it was a monday ( cf. on page 61)

Charlie

My knowledge of heraldic law and practice is limited for France but, from my experience, it is rare to have two family members use the identical arms. You do get the same arms attributed to different members in (nearly) contemporaneous texts but this is usually put down as an error or simplification.

Part of the problem lies in the use of a 'family' arms that should only be used by the head of the family but that also gets used by writers to refer to any famous (or infamous) member of the same family. There are notable instances of father & son using the same arms but most of these come from early in the use of heraldry, not as late as the 15th C.

Sadly we do not have records that are complete enough and reliable enough to trace how heraldic law and custom was applied in practice over the centuries so the real answer is 'we don't know for sure'.

There is a reference to Maximilian winning against Claude de Vaudrey in 1495 in a tournament during the diet in Worms (the only recorded fight of Maximilian there), so I think dying in 93 is unlikely. He must have been pretty established to fight the crowned king.

link

Here is the depiction of this fight in Maximilians tournament book, the Freydal (though from twenty years later):
Freydal 39

According to the documents, the mounted fight was a draw, while the melee ended with Maximilian victorious. Vaudrey was considered "champion d'armes", though I am not sure wether that was a common praise or some form of title that had to be earned.

Regarding the arms – the left one could be the arms of Frankfurt (Main), white eagle on red ground, and the right one is the same as the arms for Franken – though it makes not much sense to show a regional arms beside a free town. A source for the image would certainly help to see wether this makes sense as a knightly arms.

The answer I think, in : « La vraye et parfaite science des armoiries ou l'indice armorial de feu Maistre Louvan Geliot, advocat », page 651

link
IV – Arms of Guillaume de Vaudrey, Lord of Corlaou : "Emmanché de gueules et d'argent".
V – Arms of Antoine de Vaudrey, Lord of l'Aigle ( Claude de Vaudrey's father) : "Emmanché de gueules et d'argent au lambel d'or".

A different devise of Claude de Vaudrey : « Plus me montrerai, plus vaudrai » this means : « The more I will show myself, the more I will be Worth ».
In : link

I can't find any information about the livery or liveries used by Claude de Vaudrey in tournament or in battle, it may be different of his coat of arms.

Thank you all, this is very helpful.

@ T Labienus – That's a very good find, thank you.

I have a parallel thread on this subject over at LAF which has found some interesting info, if interested check it out link

So there seem to be multiple different accounts of how Claude and Guillaume were related – I've now found references to them as cousins, brothers, even father and son! I think the evidence points to them being nephew and uncle. There are some varying references to Claude, but I think it's safe to assume there was only one Claude at this time and he died around 1515.

Guillaume is the complication – how does he fit into the family tree? The family tree in my first post, which I made based on information from the 'Dictionaire Historique', link puts him as the third son of Jean de Vaudrey, his elder brothers being Lancelot, Lord of Courlaou, and Anthoine, Lord of l'Aigle (Claude's father). However I have since found NUMEROUS sources referring to Guillaume as Lord of Courlaou, including his tomb in the church at Courlaou!

How could this be? If we assume an error in the 'Dictionaire Historique', could it be that Jean only had two children, Guillaume and Anthoine, making Guillaume Lord of Courlaou and presumably head of the family (which explains his arms). Lancelot would be his son. This would still make him uncle to Claude.