"India vs China: Airpower compared" Topic

"The Chinese Air Force, the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), is stronger compared with the Indian Air Force (IAF) in terms of fleet and strategic inventory, but the IAF deploys more reliable platforms and strategic bases, combined with experienced troops.

This analysis is based on available facts and technical specifications; the actual performance of the forces and aerial assets may vary based on the skills and adaptability to actual conditions…."
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Amicalement
Armand

The real issue will be who has the better rules of engagement, if tensions in the air escalate.

A key area not mentioned in the article is that India is behind China in its home-grown aviation manufacturing industry. The long-in-development next-gen Tejas is a costly disaster by all accounts. While China has been busy developing its indigenous aviation industry via reverse-engineering, India has been content purchasing off-the-shelf equipment from both the west and Russia. No arrangements were even made at licencing the manufacture of components in their deals like what many nations have been making as conditions to a deal. They're almost as bad (or good if you're the seller) as Saudi Arabia in that regard.

I always think it's funny how these assessments focus on top of the line equipment and exclude all the garbage.

And China and India both pack huge amounts of garbage – MiG-21/J-7 is still one of the most numerous fighters in both India and China! China also operates J-8 (MiG-23 comparable) and JH-7 (Tornado equivalent) whilst India also has 100+ SEPECAT Jaguars in various states of upgrade.

I think the Chinese still have 2 regiments of Q-5 attack aircraft based on the MiG-19 in service!!

The article fails to mention that India also operates the Mirage 2000 (50 airframes) which are an elite force and used in dedicated precision strike (similar to what they are planning to do with Rafale).

And it focuses too much on India's small fleets of AH-64 (22), CH-47 (15) and Rafale (36).

Those are pitiful numbers. Both countries operate huge numbers of Mi-8/-17 Hips as mainstay transport helicopter. The Indians also have huge numbers of licence produced Alouette IIIs.

In case of a high-altitude war, India is better placed than China as many of the IAF aircraft are capable of flying at high altitudes in all-weather conditions with support from nearby airbases.

Talk about a dumb comment. China's fighter fleet too operates at high altitude and also in all weather conditions.

Fighter jets and even old clunkers like MiG-21s are generally designed to operate at high altitude! The Chinese have acquired virtually similar technology to the Indians in the form of the Su-27 series (Indian version is Su-30MKI, Chinese operate numerous versions Su-27/30/35, J-11A/B, J-16).

Helicopters and altitude
The other moot point is helicopters which struggle in those altitudes. Most of them won't make it.

It's why the Indians still use the SA-315B Lama light helicopter which is based on Alouette II but has superb "hot and high" performance though these are starting to get on in age and have had restrictions placed on them.

Transport fleet
Transport fleets comparison is also totally wrong.

In terms of heavy transport India has 11 C-17s, 12 C-130s and 11 Il-76s for a total of 34 aircraft.

China has 22 Il-76s, 9 Y-20 (C-17 equivalents) and 84 Y-8/9 (An-12 version, equivalent to C-130) for a total of 115 heavy transports.

The Indians do win in terms of medium transport with 104 An-32 + 56 HS748 (essentially an old 1960s turboprop airliner) compared to 50 Y-7 (An-26 version) for China.

The Do-228 is essentially a utility transport with 19 civilian passenger capacity. And yes India has more of those types of aircraft than China.

A key area not mentioned in the article is that India is behind China in its home-grown aviation manufacturing industry. The long-in-development next-gen Tejas is a costly disaster by all accounts. While China has been busy developing its indigenous aviation industry via reverse-engineering, India has been content purchasing off-the-shelf equipment from both the west and Russia. No arrangements were even made at licencing the manufacture of components in their deals like what many nations have been making as conditions to a deal.

India's Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) does produce 80% of the Su-30MKI (or so it says – HAL says a lot of things).

But I agree with most of your comment.

India's ability to develop its own equipment is poor be it the Tejas fighter (current version doesn't offer even the capability of upgraded MiG-21S), tanks (Arjun – massive reliability issues) or even assault rifles (spectacularly failed INSAS which will be replaced by licence produced AK-103).

And Tejas is not next generation as in 5th generation or even 4++ generation (eg Rafale). It is meant to be a light weight 4th generation jet similar to a JAS-39 Gripen.

It has been in development since the 1980s and they still haven't settled on a final production model. There is 1 single squadron equipped with an interim limited capability model (Mk 1 IOC). A second squadron is being formed with a slightly improved model (Mk 1 FOC).

HAL has struggled to build the things so even low level production is horrifically behind schedule.

The actual production model Mk 1A (83 planned) is yet to be properly ordered and hasn't even flown in prototype form. There is also talk of a Mk 2 (150 planned) but that's a paper exercise so far.

Even if it all works out well, the Indians will get the Mk IA in the mid-2020s and Mk 2 in late 2020s-early 2030s. However note this aircraft still isn't as capable as the F-16 Block 50 or 70 or JAS-39 Gripen.

The Indians were planning two stealth fighters – 1 with Russia (FGFA version of Su-57) and a domestic one (AMCA).

The Russian collaboration has fallen over completely.

AMCA was meant to be in service by 2029 but last news in 2019 was that they haven't even signed off on prototype development! Apparently it's future is dependent on freezing of Tejas Mk 2 design.

So India's indigenous fighter program is based on developing increasingly obsolete aircraft (Tejas) whilst China has 1 stealth fighter in service (J-20) and another flown in prototype form (FC-31, not yet accepted for operational use) .

They're almost as bad (or good if you're the seller) as Saudi Arabia in that regard.

Actually selling to India is painful for defence vendors. Most of India's tendering processes are beyond convoluted, open to political machinations and they will then cancel contracts on even mere allegations of corruption, unplanned changes to specifications and political machinations.

Look at the Multi Role Combat Aircraft program designed to licence produce 126 new medium combat jets. This started in 2001. The IAF really wanted more Mirages to supplement its existing fleet.

By the time the Request for Proposal was sent out in 2004 the Mirage 2000 was out of production!

The program then lumbered along to 2012 when the Dassault Rafale was announced as a winner.

However, by this stage the cost of the aircraft has skyrocketed, the Indians wanted France to guarantee work by Indian vendors and the whole program fell in a poo heap! It was cancelled in 2015.

In the end India ordered a mere 36 Rafales in 2015!

So after 14 years, they got a quarter of the planes and no licence production.

This has happened endemically within Indian procurement.

And one final mention – China has invested heavily in electronic warfare (eg fielding of J-16D EW jet similar in function to E/A-18G Growler), a plethora of Y-8/9 (An-12) EW platforms as well as anti satellite missile technology.

India has not been so proactive in this area – they're hoping those 36 hard pressed Rafales which haven't even be delivered will provide SEAD as well as shoot down enemy jets and launch precision strikes!

If the Chinese can jam the Indian C3 network, shoot down Indian satellites and slam Indian air defence radars, then they have a significant advantage.

It is these kind of capabilities which allows the US and Israel to neutralise or at least bypass enemy IADS including supposedly advanced S300 and Pantsirs in Syria.

China's ability to produce jet fighters is pretty poor too, when it comes to top of the line jet engines. They still haven't mastered that yet.

My guess is perhaps India has learned from that, and decided not to waste resources even trying to produce them.

Jury is out on China's aircraft electronics, radar, and weapons, since those haven't been tested in battle yet.

Yea, many nations have crap 2nd, and/or 3rd line aircraft, but they're better than nothing, especially if/when unopposed.

The Indians are still tinkering around with the Kaveri engine 24 years after the first one was built. And they are still worthless and they're having to plug American F414s into Tejas.

Note despite American engines the Tejas is underpowered in terms of thrust to weight ratio.

As for the 2nd or 3rd line aircraft, the Indian air force is so short on aircraft that they sent Mig-21Bisons to intercept a Pakistani strike last year in which one of the MiGs was shot down by the Pakistanis.

The Russian Flankers have terrible availability due to spare parts issues (despite India apparently producing 80% of these – as I said HAL says lots of things, whether they are true is anyone's guess). The 60-ish MiG-29s are the same. And note both Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 numbers are down due to upgrade programs.

Leaves the MiG-21 as the primary interceptor in Indian service.

Earlier this year the Navy had to deploy carrier based MiG-29s to plug a gap in air defences in the landlocked north of the country!

I suspect any way between India and Pakistan and/or China will see large utilisation of obsolete jets ala Mig-21/J-7, J-8, Jaguar and Mirage III/5 (still mainstay of Pakistani air force).

I reckon the MiG-21 is much easier and less costly to maintain than the more modern fighters in India's inventory. The rugged little plane still serves today in various guises, my favorite being the Chinese evolution for the Pakistani air force, the JF-17:

Wish someone would make the J-7, J-8, J-17, and J-31 in metal, in 1/600th scale, among others.

Tejas and Su-57 would be nice too.

I have many of the others, which would/could make for some interesting gaming.

reckon the MiG-21 is much easier and less costly to maintain than the more modern fighters in India's inventory.

No doubt. Except even upgraded versions are completely obsolete as was shown by one getting blasted out of the sky last year.

Indeed it was completely obsolete by 1975 (even the at the time new MiG-21Bis variant) and since then its main role in A2A has been to be shot down and to provide "air policing" for some of NATO's new impoverished eastern partner states where they still serve as Romania's main and Croatia's only fighters.

The rugged little plane still serves today in various guises, my favorite being the Chinese evolution for the Pakistani air force, the JF-17:

Though to be fair the JF-17 is virtually a new aircraft – new fuselage, new wing, new engine (Russian RD-93 turbofan), all new avionics (western ones in Pakistani versions), fly-by-wire etc.

It has been a saviour for the Pakistanis who not only struggled to get more F-16s during embargo but then couldn't afford many new F-16s once embargo was lifted.

Also note it was claimed that the Indian MiG-21 shot down last year was shot down by a JF-17.

Though to be fair the JF-17 is virtually a new aircraft

It looks like the lovechild between an F-16 and the canceled F-20 Tigershark.