Tango01 | 05 Aug 2020 9:07 p.m. PST |
Interesting thread here… link
Amicalement Armand |
Thresher01 | 05 Aug 2020 9:23 p.m. PST |
1950s if it doesn't go nuclear, since NATO had little in the way of military forces, and the Soviets kept most of theirs, post-WWII. 1960s probably, or very early 1970s, when the USA was tied down in Vietnam. Throw in the troubles in the Middle East in 1967 or 1973, and get the Arabs to align with you on the oil embargo and things get bad very quickly. |
Garand | 05 Aug 2020 9:51 p.m. PST |
Actually I would vote for the Post-vietnam '70's. US morale was rock bottom, & once the army was all-volunteer, they were not getting the best recruits in this era either, since military service was not popular. Also, so I understand, the 105mm tungsten APDS would have had difficulty penetrating the frontal armor on T-64s & possible T-72s, so the gun that armed 90% of NATO would have been less effective in this era. Damon. |
PaulB | 05 Aug 2020 11:45 p.m. PST |
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Max Schnell | 06 Aug 2020 7:13 a.m. PST |
PaulB, thanks for the wake-up face slap. Since my face still stings I forgot my reply. LOL. |
Legion 4 | 06 Aug 2020 8:14 a.m. PST |
I don't think there ever was a "good" time for the USSR to attack the West across the IGB, etc. The closer to the end of WWII say about 1950 would have been their best option. Look at how unprepared the US was at the start of the Korean War. As far as attacking during the Vietnam War. Regardless of US morale, etc., would not have been a good option either. We had a lot of forces in Europe along with NATO forces. And we are on a war footing with Vietnam going on. Some of our troops left Vietnam after their one year tour/rotation was completed and went to units in Europe, etc. Plus there is a question of how many WP nations would follow the USSR in an attack on the West. As far as the USSR MBTS vs. US/NATO is we did have an advantage of better optics. Which could be telling. Plus we developed the Helicopter Gunship and aircraft like the A-10[albeit later] specifically to combat the Red Hordes crossing the IGB. Plus the US had a large number of combat Vets in its ranks having fought/served in SE Asia. Combat experience is certainly a plus. At that time the USSR had little combat experience overall generally. |
PaulB | 06 Aug 2020 9:33 a.m. PST |
John, sorry it stings, I find cognac takes the pain away very effectively |
SBminisguy | 06 Aug 2020 9:57 a.m. PST |
There never was -- maybe, maaaybe just 1950 itself. The US fared badly early on in the Korean War because most of our front-line units were stationed in Germany. In 1950 the US had x11 infantry divisions, one airborne division, and x3 armored divisions garrisoned in Germany. As the Korean War progressed each division was reinforced and expanded, several more divisions added to garrison duty in Germany and a large expansion of air force units. And that doesn't include whatever number of British, French and German units were there. Also keep in mind that in the 1950s the US was planning to go nuke early on and trained for a tactical nuclear battlefield. |
Tango01 | 06 Aug 2020 12:48 p.m. PST |
Thanks!. Amicalement Armand |
Thresher01 | 06 Aug 2020 1:24 p.m. PST |
The West German Army didn't get reestablished until 1958, though apparently there were some WWII vets, and presumably leftover weapons, uniforms, and helmets. I've seen a few photos of late 1950s Bundeswehr in WWII kit, with MG42s/MG3s, and carrying basic rifles, on exercises. IIRC, the Soviets had like 240+ Divisions still available in the 1950s. Granted, theirs are smaller than ours, at about 50% – 60% strength, but that is an awful lot of troops under arms for just them alone, not including their dubious Warsaw Pact allies. |
Legion 4 | 07 Aug 2020 8:12 a.m. PST |
All that is true AFAIK … But I don't think even Stalin was ready to start WWIII in 1950. The USSR lost somewhere between 20-27 million, if the estimates are correct. |
Cuprum2 | 07 Aug 2020 9:37 a.m. PST |
The mobilization resources of the USSR at that moment were coming to an end. By the end of the war, Soviet divisions had a shortage of up to half of the personnel. In addition, the entire European part of the USSR lay in ruins. The USSR was definitely not ready for an offensive war, especially taking into account the absence of nuclear weapons and the prospects for their early appearance. All that Stalin could hope for was inflicting unacceptable losses on the attacking enemy. link |
15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 07 Aug 2020 11:33 a.m. PST |
The likelihood of Uncle Joe starting WWIII is low to begin with. Stalin was rather cautious (or timid) for a dictator when it comes to matters of war, preferring to sit on the sidelines and let others wear each other out than getting his own hands dirty, like he did in WWII with the Non-Aggression Pact with Hitler. |
Rudysnelson | 07 Aug 2020 2:56 p.m. PST |
Leaving army in Europe while they repair the railroad lines to Russia. Once enough pre stock is there, launch in 1948-49. The surprise attack would have given the North Koreans a better chance to win. |
Irish Marine | 07 Aug 2020 6:37 p.m. PST |
The Red Gambit series of books were very good. The series was about Stalin starting WW3 just after the end of WW2. link |
Cuprum2 | 07 Aug 2020 6:38 p.m. PST |
15mm and 28mm Fanatik Supporting, In fact, Stalin was ready to go to war with Hitler back in 1938, on the territory of Czechoslovakia, fulfilling an agreement of 1935 on mutual assistance against third party aggression. Thirty Soviet divisions of the first echelon were already standing in full combat readiness on the border, ready to arrive on the territory of Czechoslovakia at the first signal and engage in battle with the Nazis. But one of the conditions of this treaty was France's entry into the war, which, as we know, did not happen. |
ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa | 08 Aug 2020 2:26 a.m. PST |
Doesn't the same basic truth hold for WWII that the US could still out-manufacture the USSR? |
Legion 4 | 08 Aug 2020 7:12 a.m. PST |
Well some say the 3 Generals that won WWII : General Electric General Motors General Foods Once again "Amateurs study Tactics … Professionals study Logistics. " … 🦅🗽 |
Cuprum2 | 08 Aug 2020 9:24 a.m. PST |
ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa, at the beginning of World War II, this is perhaps not an unambiguous statement. The rate of growth of production in the USSR is amazing, as is the ability of the socialist economy to mobilize. |
Wolfhag | 08 Aug 2020 9:05 p.m. PST |
I don't think the Russians have ever stopped attacking the West since 1917. The KGB's goal was to take over from within, not by military power. "Most of the American politicians, media, and educational system trains another generation of people who think they are living at the peacetime," said the former KGB agent. "False. United States is in a state of war: undeclared, total war against the basic principles and foundations of this system." link Full Video: YouTube link The West declared victory and the Cold War over. However, it seems Putin didn't get the memo. YouTube link Anyone care to tell how many have been achieved, what the score is? How many of these violent protesters claim Marxist and Communist roots and beliefs? I have to think Putin is sitting back smiling how he's making bigger gains in the US than when he was in the KGB. Look in the mirror and ask yourself, "Am I a Useful Idiot?" Wolfhag |
Legion 4 | 09 Aug 2020 7:20 a.m. PST |
Wolf +1 ! Putin – once KGB … always KGB …
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Cuprum2 | 09 Aug 2020 9:49 a.m. PST |
Is Putin a communist? I probably haven't heard more stupidity for a long time) Putin is an ardent anti-Soviet. The KGB is one of the main participants and organizers of the destruction of the USSR and the decreditation of communist ideology in Russia. Someone slept through the history of the last three decades) |
Garand | 09 Aug 2020 12:59 p.m. PST |
Putin practices his own version of crony capitalism. Different from the West, but still crony capitalism. And you don't need to question whether the protesters might be commies in disguise, when we know for a fact that the Russians have tried to interfere with the US election process, & threaten to do it again. The real threat to US democracy is not the protesters in the street, but the guy that votes based on Facebook memes. Damon. |
Legion 4 | 09 Aug 2020 3:39 p.m. PST |
Someone slept through the history of the last three decades I think it is whose "version of history" you are taught/believe. Garand +1 |
Cuprum2 | 09 Aug 2020 6:33 p.m. PST |
Of course, this is just my personal vision of the situation, but still I observe it from the inside, not from outside))) I believe that the communist power in the USSR was destroyed by the criminal revolution. Communist ideology was replaced by people with a criminal way of thinking (enrichment at any cost, regardless of laws and norms). That is why the Russian version of capitalism is clan. "Family" – what could be more natural for such an organization). But everything is constantly developing and the former criminals now feel like the ruling elite of the country. Their perceptions and goals are transformed. But the ways of thinking and reflexes remain the same. However, this is the natural way of development of capitalism) At the heart of any "big old money" is a crime) Putin is the man who has been tasked with settling affairs between the various power clans. But he did business in such a way that from a simple intermediary he became a "godfather", subjugating these communities and eliminating those who resisted. I do not see any other ideology besides the thirst for money and power among the current Russian authorities. Hence the desire to redistribute the world zones of influence. In the 90s, the KGB became one of the very criminal clans that destroyed and robbed the USSR. |
Cuprum2 | 09 Aug 2020 6:48 p.m. PST |
Garand, it's funny to hear that someone influences the elections in the USA))) Does the United States influence elections around the world? It seems to me that this is an absolutely natural process and mutual influence cannot be avoided. There is a solution though! Chinese sample "Firewall" and heavy censorship of the media. Destroy dissent))) "Iron Curtain" – what could be better))) |
Wolfhag | 09 Aug 2020 8:42 p.m. PST |
Cuprum2, I think you got it accurately in your description of Russia right now. link The Soviet Union was never 100% Communist as they need hard currency which is why people like Armand Hammer were recruited to do business with the West. When countries are calling themselves socialist, democracies, republics, does not always fit the reality of how they operate. With the American voters giving more and more power and money to an elite ruling class (the Dems and Reps are basically the same) they are slowly giving up their freedoms and helping the rich get richer. With disease and famine rampant in the early post-revolution days, Dr. Hammer, just out of medical school, went to Soviet Union to volunteer his services as a doctor. He took with him a fully equipped field hospital and was the first American and one of the first Westerners allowed into the new Bolshevik state. The widespread starvation appalled him, and he quickly arranged a shipment of American grain. The move so impressed Lenin that he called Dr. Hammer in for private meeting. "It's just fortunate that I was there at a time when Lenin was disillusioned with communism," Dr. Hammer recalled of those early days in Russia. "He told me that communism wasn't working and that was why he adopted the New Economic Policy, opening up private trade and giving concessions to foreigners to come and do business with Russia. He said to me, 'Why don't you come in and be the first? What we need is businessmen like you. You can have any concession you like.'"He gave me two: one for mining asbestos and the other for fur import-export" (mostly furs on the export side; Dr. Hammer established trapping outposts all over Siberia). I think Putin is very surprised that the Socialist seed they planted in the US and churches (Liberation Theology) decades ago has taken root so deeply after the fall of the Berlin Wall with little interference or help from Russia. I don't know what you'd call the US but trillions in unfunded liabilities, deficit spending, and annual trillion-dollar debt projected for the rest of my life, fiat currency and public pensions that have been mismanaged and stolen is not what Adam Smith had in mind as a self-sustaining Capitalist system. Amazingly, none of this is being addressed in the election coming up. If the American people really understood what has gone wrong and the responsibility both parties have I afraid there would be a shortage of rope at Home Depot. Wolfhag |
Thresher01 | 10 Aug 2020 2:37 a.m. PST |
I think its kind of like ex-Marines. There aren't any, I'm told, unless those thrown out of service for cause. Once KGB, ALWAYS KGB, FSB, or whatever new name you want to come up for them. |
Cuprum2 | 10 Aug 2020 3:36 a.m. PST |
Thresher01, the KGB (aka the Cheka, the NKVD, and now the FSB), just like the marines, is a tool. The tool does not control itself. He is always in someone's hands .. This is what is important. Wolfhag, you don't know Lenin's works well))) Socialism is a process. The process of transition of society from capitalist relations to communist ones. Socialism does not come immediately after a change in the state system. This is impossible))) "War communism", which the Bolsheviks used during the Civil War, is an emergency measure of wartime in a country with a ruined economy. In fact, Lenin spoke of the need to revive capitalism in Russia, under communist control, even before the October Revolution!))) But it had to be a kind of capitalism – you can see it in the example of modern China. Moreover, Lenin believed that the means of production should not have been confiscated, but had to be bought from the owners by the workers who work in these enterprises. But this is a long way. Stalin decided to go through it quickly, implementing reforms by force, and he simply destroyed the opposition from Lenin's associates. And I do not know how to assess these actions unambiguously. On the one hand, he committed monstrous crimes. But on the other hand, thanks to his actions, the USSR managed to prepare for the Second World War, which is tantamount to a real miracle. |
Legion 4 | 10 Aug 2020 6:58 a.m. PST |
And the eternal discussion of the Communists/Socialists vs. Capitalism and Democracy continues … And "Never the twain shall meet." … Well at least we can agree on something, i.e. I do not see any other ideology besides the thirst for money and power among the current Russian authorities. Hence the desire to redistribute the world zones of influence. In the 90s, the KGB became one of the very criminal clans that destroyed and robbed the USSR. |
Cuprum2 | 10 Aug 2020 8:12 a.m. PST |
Everyone has his own truth. The main judge will judge – time) Socialism – it is the power of the majority. . What could be more democratic? |
Legion 4 | 10 Aug 2020 9:16 a.m. PST |
Sounds a little like semantics … 🤔🤨😏 |
ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa | 10 Aug 2020 10:06 a.m. PST |
For the record US steel production circa 1950 80 million tonnes a year and for USSR 30 million. |