Baycee | 03 Aug 2020 12:57 p.m. PST |
Well, i was actually planning to write some words on this subject for a long time and I've finally managed to find a couple of hours to list my thoughts! Article here!
Be sure to tell me how wrong i am and how i forgot to add your favorite tank to the list! :) I've tried to keep things as objective as i could and my favorite tank of WW2 is on position 5, so i think i managed to do that! |
Frederick | 03 Aug 2020 1:25 p.m. PST |
I think the humble Panzer III should have an honourable mention – served thru the high water marks of blitzkrieg and the desert, and with the three man turret was arguably the first modern main battle tank Glad to see my favourite (StuGIII) made it onto the list! Thanks for sharing |
Blutarski | 03 Aug 2020 1:57 p.m. PST |
Allow me to nominate another "honorable mention" – the M36 Jakcson (nicknamed "Slugger" by its crews). B |
Herkybird | 03 Aug 2020 2:13 p.m. PST |
It is difficult to set such a list!- good try though! A couple of factual queries, the T-34 only ever really used a 76.2mm and 85mm gun, not a 57mm. Sherman Firefly should only refer to the British conversion with the 17pdr (76.2mm) gun, American tanks carrying the M1 76mm gun would be better called Sherman 76's. |
Baycee | 03 Aug 2020 2:15 p.m. PST |
Hmm, apparently only 10 T-34's were built with the 57mm gun. I don't know why i had the impression the 57mm was the de facto early T-34 gun. Also, good info on the Firefly. It's actually a british conversion (that the canadians used too, right?) |
deadhead | 03 Aug 2020 2:16 p.m. PST |
That sure as heck is no Firefly, the M4A3E8 with the HVSS suspension, (and this from an interested but profoundly ignorant visiting Napoleonic buff). Some very, very nice models though (other than that poor showing of a "Firefly" which is a strange colour and lacks weathering etc etc.) This is a good idea to encourage folk to contribute. Glad to see the M10 getting an honourable mention, even if not strictly a tank, but a TD, like the M36 also. I would have favoured the M3 Grant/Lee over the Churchill, if we are to consider the whole war and not just the latter half. Thanks for the posting I hope it prospers. |
Baycee | 03 Aug 2020 2:28 p.m. PST |
Yeah, i'm letting this sit for tonight but tomorrow i need to fix the obvious mistakes. :) And add the honorable mentions please have listed. |
Mark 1 | 03 Aug 2020 5:50 p.m. PST |
That sure as heck is no Firefly, the M4A3E8 with the HVSS suspension, (and this from an interested but profoundly ignorant visiting Napoleonic buff). Well, um, yeah, but … It's not necessary to say "M4A3E8 with the HVSS suspension". ALL M4A3E8s had HVSS. The -E8 suffix was a reference to the experimental installation of the HVSS suspension. Oddly, and uniquely, the -E8 designation was used for the HVSS suspension when applied to any sub-variant of M4 (ie: M4A1E8, M4A2E8, etc.). More commonly each sub-variant had it's own list of E's. Better to say "M4A3E8 with 76mm gun", because M4A3E8s were built with 75mm guns, 76mm guns, and 105mm howitzers. Or you could say "M4A3E6 with HVSS", because -E6 was the designation of the experimental version of the M4A3 with the 76mm-armed T23 turret. (But unlike -E8, the -E6 indicates the wartime 76mm gun ONLY in M4A3s. If you apply it to the M4A1 (ie: M4A1E6) you will be identifying the post-war MDAP conversion of M4A1s, which, if you did the same conversion on an M4A3 you would add an -E4). Or you could say M4A3(76)w HVSS, which is the correct designation for the tank in the picture, being an M4A3 with a 76mm guns, wet stowage, and the HVSS suspension system (the -E designator identifying an experimental type, before it becomes a production type). Or you could just go with M4A3E8, which is what most folks call it. Or I could just be quiet and leave you to go on about your day. -Mark (aka: Mk 1) |
ColCampbell | 03 Aug 2020 5:52 p.m. PST |
You show the picture of a KV-1 but the description seems to match more with the KV-2, below.
Jim |
Korvessa | 03 Aug 2020 9:23 p.m. PST |
Sometimes I think these types of list should be "Best tanks of mid-late war." WWII was unusual I think in that equipment that was good at the start in 1939, was hopelessly obsolete by the end. I am no expert, but I don't think that has happened much in history – and probably never will again. Isn't the US military still using stuff from 30 years ago? I would argue that the Soviet T-26 was a great tank – for it's day. Compare it to PzI or II. |
Cerdic | 03 Aug 2020 10:54 p.m. PST |
Mark 1 – thanks for clarifying that…errr, I think! Personally I'm happy with my own system. There are Shermans, and some jazzed up Shermans with bigger guns… |
Martin Rapier | 03 Aug 2020 11:14 p.m. PST |
As noted above, in 1936 the T-26 was hot stuff. I've no great quibbles with the list, but I would certainly vote for the Pz III, the mainstay of the panzerwaffe while it was still winning. Pz IVs only really became predominant in numerical terms in 1944. The KV-1 was only really a supertank in 1941 and 42, once the Pak 40 was fielded it just became an unreliable, expensive and slow alternative to the T34, which was why the Russians dumped them. The T34 otoh, was in service for decades after WW2, as was the Sherman, which made them pretty good designs. |
deadhead | 04 Aug 2020 1:21 a.m. PST |
Mark That is brilliant. Now if you want to know about the evolving headwear of Lithuanian Tartars of the Imperial Guard, I could speak with more confidence. |
Baycee | 04 Aug 2020 2:49 a.m. PST |
Thank you all for the feedback. I have updated the article. :) 1. Adding Panzer III as honorable mention. 2. Adding M36 Jackson as honorable mention. 3. Made a note that the T-34's 57mm gun was just experimental. 4. Made a note that the Firefly is actually a british conversion. 5. Changed the picture for the "Firefly". It was actually an M4A3E8. 6. Change the wording of the KV-1 to fit more with the KV-1, not the KV-2. 7. Added T-26 as honorable mention. |
Rudysnelson | 04 Aug 2020 1:44 p.m. PST |
Not sure of the ranking criteria. Production numbers, kill power or what. The T34 narrative that lists guns should read or not and. The and implies all three. Or only one. |
Baycee | 04 Aug 2020 11:08 p.m. PST |
I've modified the and to or. It does make sense, re-reading it. I would say for me the top is about popularity on tabletop as in use. This is not about the real world data, but about how i feel about how popular they are in ww2 gaming. Tiger being by far the most popular/known. |
deadhead | 05 Aug 2020 9:44 a.m. PST |
That was quick work. All too often here, folk take offence if any errors are pointed out. Instead you have immediately corrected them. That makes a nice change. You say the M4 Sherman is instantly recognisable. Oh sure, I could tell a Sherman when I was less than 10 years old, but try to spot the sub-type! Is it an M4, an M4A1, M4A2, 3 or 4, or even a composite? VVSS or HVSS? Wet or Dry? 105, 75, 76 etc gun? Look at the driver/gunner's hatches and tell me where it was made. I thought your posting was very thought provoking, especially once I realised you meant popularity in gaming, rather than quality on a battlefield. I also found much to interest on your website and you Romanian chaps do like your Tigers and King Tigers, I notice. I hope you have wide and strong bridges on your tables! |
Baycee | 05 Aug 2020 10:54 a.m. PST |
Haha, thanks! :) I try to grow my website with the small sparetime i have between a job and family, and taking offense when people educate you is not constructive. Yeah, even when you go buy some model kits Tigers are at a prime here. My favorite is the Panther though. :P |
79thPA | 05 Aug 2020 11:23 a.m. PST |
I think the list is pretty accurate since he is talking about gaming and not real life application. |
Blutarski | 05 Aug 2020 12:50 p.m. PST |
Deadhead wrote – "I thought your posting was very thought provoking, especially once I realised you meant popularity in gaming." Spot on. The reason I nominated the M36 for honorable mention was in consideration of the fact that I once lost a half-dozen Tigers and Panthers to a platoon of M36s in ambush (Armor-Infantry 1925-1950, P Barker rules). I still remember that embarrassing moment. ;-) B |
Rudysnelson | 05 Aug 2020 1:38 p.m. PST |
Glad you made the Pnzr III HM. One of my favorites. Not a fan of the lumbering heavies. The M4E8, T34, Pnzr IV, are good. |
BeneathALeadMountain | 08 Aug 2020 3:18 p.m. PST |
Excellent and interesting piece. Recognition of even basic types (Sherman not M4 whatever) is very helpful in gaming. My favourite opponent and I were playing Chain of Command once with undisclosed supports. He was playing Russians and I Germans. I moved my (sole – this should have given it away) Tank to the edge of some cover and he looked at it and said "oh that's fine, Stugs have such a small field of fire I can sneak around here (and moved his T34s and T70 in a daring flank move). I'd been trying not to giggle maniacally. I reached forward and slowly rotated my Tigers turret to face them (they are very expensive in CoC and I'd never fielded one before – he'd just glanced at it and made an assumption on what I usually chose). In fairness it was late and we'd been playing for days (we stopped to sleep but that's about it) and my Tiger had liberal foliage attached to it. He has never lived it down and my Tigers barrel still has the three kill rings from that game. |
Heedless Horseman | 08 Aug 2020 8:26 p.m. PST |
BeneathALeadmountain: That 'Oh S***!' moment will have been about the most 'real' gaming that there can be! lol!!! |
BeneathALeadMountain | 09 Aug 2020 11:31 a.m. PST |
It was amazing. I was stuck between trying not to laugh at how this was going to turn out and trying to decide if I should tell him and let him retake his move. It was such a perfect bit of camouflage/mis-identification that I reasoned that it was quite fitting as fog of war and making decisions under fire and to let it go. It's actually worse as it happened twice and I've mis-remembered the story quite badly (the T34s and T70 were a later game after the Tiger was painted and sat in a wood with just his gun pointing out). The first time the tiger was just base coated dunkelgelb and in the open. I went to my blog to see if I had photos and discovered 5yrs and huge daily amounts of prescription painkillers can compress your memory. Reading the post again I felt even more sorry for him as I thought he'd only done it once (at least I didn't take any photos or blog about the second time). Luckily he doesn't frequent TMP. Now when we play he takes a couple of minutes to really stare at any armour I bring onto the table :) link is the game report and first time I used it and… link is her all painted and with her kill ring. Apologies for the memory lapse (at least the correct version is worse and funnier) it's the opposite of the classic every panzer's a tiger. BALM |
deadhead | 09 Aug 2020 12:28 p.m. PST |
As you say…this time it really was a Tiger… What a great tale. Never chucked dice myself (other than a foray into WWI and airborne/amphibious assault WWII, the latter with Heroics and Ros). Both resulted in a slaughter. Here is a thing. Your Tiger has Zimmert grooves shown in 15mm scale. What kind of eyes do you have? I always use magnification (always did at work but increasingly since packing up) but……impressed |
BeneathALeadMountain | 09 Aug 2020 2:22 p.m. PST |
Thanks Deadhead. I'm short sighted but with correction (soft lenses) it's excellent. I love sculpting and painting small things, my Mum's standard reply to me showing her my hobby nonsense has always been "I don't understand how you even see it" for about 34yrs I've taken that as praise :) |