"Aztec Jaguar Warriors!" Topic
15 Posts
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MarkAMorin | 23 Jul 2020 5:39 p.m. PST |
Hey all, hope all are staying safe. Someday, we'll get back to gaming, in the meantime – I hope you find this worthwhile to check out! link |
skipper John | 23 Jul 2020 5:57 p.m. PST |
WOW! These are really nice. |
Berzerker73 | 23 Jul 2020 7:24 p.m. PST |
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Oberlindes Sol LIC | 23 Jul 2020 8:12 p.m. PST |
Those are great! Good job on the photography, too -- love the background. |
Frederick | 24 Jul 2020 4:23 a.m. PST |
Nicely done – thanks for sharing! |
justBill | 24 Jul 2020 7:31 a.m. PST |
Most excellent painting and write up! Inspires me to get back to working on my TAG aztecs. Thanks for sharing! |
jwebster | 24 Jul 2020 3:42 p.m. PST |
Fabulous The shields just blow me away John |
MarkAMorin | 25 Jul 2020 2:29 p.m. PST |
Thanks all for checking them out – and I was unaware of TAG – nice to see them and their stuff. I now have another source for stuff! |
Yesthatphil | 25 Jul 2020 2:55 p.m. PST |
Nice ! Phil |
Borderguy190 | 25 Jul 2020 4:25 p.m. PST |
Fabulous detailed paint on those minis, Mark |
Bowman | 26 Jul 2020 6:01 a.m. PST |
Some minor quibbles: The Jaguar Warriors' actual designation was cuauhocelotl. That term is used to describe both types of elite warrior classes, the Eagle Warriors and the Jaguar Warriors. The word is a combination of "cauahtli" , the Nahuatl word for eagle, and "ocelotl" the Nahuatl word for jaguar. The Jaguar Warriors themselves were collectively known as "ocelomeh". Also there is no evidence of a similar elite class known as Arrow Warriors. Your Jaguar Warriors are standing in front of the Temple of Kukulkan, in the Mayan city of Chichen Itza. (The Aztecs were planning on moving south east into the Mayan lands eventually) Ok, pedant mode off. Lovely figures brought forth with beautiful painting, Mark. |
MarkAMorin | 27 Jul 2020 11:34 a.m. PST |
Appreciate the very kind word indeed all! I figure that if I'm going to post up stuff it needs to be interesting to look at. And Bowman, I appreciate the finer points that you made (quibbles are appreciated to be sure!). To be honest, I knew that both Eagle and Jaguar Warriors were considered cuauhocelotl – and that it was a combination title, but the omission was mine. I was not aware of the term "ocelomeh", so I was happy to learn that. As I think I previously wrote, Arrow Warriors/Arrow Knights are at best conjecture and at worst the figment of the folks' imagination at Ral Partha in the '80's. In my upcoming rules, they are treated as basically atlatl troops. So, I'm cool with that disclaimer as far as having Arrow Warriors in a game goes, and I take your point for sure. Lastly, you are 100% correct on the temple. I wanted a decent backdrop of a Mesoamerican temple, and not one of ruins or filled with modern tourists (which most of the "free" non-copyright-protected images seemed to be). I settled on this one as a backdrop so kudos to you on the keen eyes. I blame the Conquistadores for destroying any potentially-better scale backdrops. I am still in search of a decent somewhat authentic-looking Aztec temple of 28mm scale that will allow for the steps to be used and one that will not be prohibitively expensive. I see some from 3D printers, but the search goes on. That, if properly painted, would have been a preferred backdrop to be sure. I do very much appreciate your "quibbles" though hey, you are correct so you helped myself (and others) learn, so that's all good by me. Healthy discussions help all of us, and I thank you for them quite sincerely. And, in the end it seems that you liked my figures, and that's cool too. I hope you'll continue to check out my progress and provide great feedback like you did here! |
Bowman | 27 Jul 2020 3:58 p.m. PST |
I think you hit the nail on the head with the original eagerness to have a third elite group to join the Eagle and Jaguar warriors. I think it is purely in the realm of war gamers and miniature manufacturers, and not the historian or anthroplogists. The atlatl was probably used by every class and level of Aztec warrior. What is disputed is that the macehualtin (or the commoner social class) probably did not use the atlatl. Their long range weapon of choice was more likely the bow and the sling. Again, this is not etched in stone. If I may make some additional reading recommendations: Ross Hassig: link Ian Heath: link Hugh Thomas: link Buddy Levy: link I've shown the Amazon pages for these books. The first two are indispensable in my opinion, as they concentrate on the military aspects of the Aztecs, allies and foes. Heath includes most of the nations in the New World. Unfortunately, the Amazon prices are outrageous so you may have to look elsewhere. The Thomas and Levy books are good general overviews of the conquest and can be bought together for a good price. I have completed my 28mm armies for this theater of war, including Tlaxcaltec allied troops from Assault Group. I also have a sizable Inca army and just completed a Mayan army. So the warfare in the New World is of great interest to me. Thankfully, no one makes a proper Mapuche army in 28mm or I'd have to get started on one of those too. Lol. So keep working on your armies and let us know about your progress. If the HMGS conventions ever get started up again maybe we can meet for a battle. |
Bowman | 27 Jul 2020 4:09 p.m. PST |
Oops and forgot Ancient Mesoamerican Warfare, Brown and Stanton editors. This book is a series of chapters written by scholars in the field. Sadly, another insanely priced book from Amazon. Find it elsewhere, also. (I'd still recommend the 4 books above, initially): link |
MarkAMorin | 27 Jul 2020 8:19 p.m. PST |
Thanks so much Bowman. Great resources – I had seen Heath before but as you say, insane prices (even in Canadian Dollars). I am working my way through Carrasco's edition of The History of the Conquest of New Spain by Bernal Díaz del Castillo. After reading the other (albeit less than fully academic) Osprey books, I moved on to Diaz for a more or less first-hand account (from an old man's memories anyways).. I will probably get the Hassig book at some point so thanks again for the referral. I hope to focus on building out my Aztec, Tlaxcalan, and Conquistador forces for Feudal Patrol (which is an upcoming skirmish-level game for the Pike and Shot era and earlier). Inca and Mayan down the road, as well as other projects like Wars of Ozz armies. I was hoping to get to an HMGS session this year (it would be my first). I have run games at BARRAGE in MD, as well as HAVOC and TOTALCON in Massachusetts. As you are in Canada (and perhaps a fan of the Habs or the Leafs maybe?), maybe some of those would be closer to you. In any case you have been very generous and I appreciate the help – and I hope you will keep looking (hint, snake woman up next). |
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