"What's best rules for Wars of Roses" Topic

I have been struggling with which rules to use for the Wars of Roses, and specifically what basing sizes they use, and which looks and feels the best!

A Crown of Paper – free download on 'The Perfect Captain' web-site offers a very different approach and I found gave a good game. Otherwise I'd go for To the Strongest or DBM* which will shock most. Of these only DBM is fussy about base size, the others will allow you to do more or less what you want and it only matters for DBM if you're playing other people's armies.
(*usually modified for hexes)

If you want to be able to go freestyle on basing, do look at Peter Pig's Bloody Barons. By a happy coincidence, summaries of all their rule systems have been announced on TMP today!

Maybe surprisingly, but DBA v3 works very well for the WOTR. Particularly the big battle option.

(But DBA 2.x and 1.x did not. Not even with the DBA 2.x Big Battles rules.)

My favorite Medieval rules of the moment are Lion Rampant.

Lion Rampant is not an accurate historical simulation. If you'd be happy with fast-play Hollywood-style Medieval heroism, it's hard to beat.

It's also a relatively easy base to which you can bolt on house rules. There are several mechanics in Lion Rampant that cause me heartburn, but they're so easy to fix I'm not really bothered.

- Ix

For all periods Ancient to Medieval you can't go wrong with To the Strongest. They have become my favorite rules.

TTS was going to be my next suggestion. Legionarius beat me to it.

I've played quite a bit of TTS with a local group (and For King and Parliament, the ECW version), and I have only three caveats to mention:

• Lady Luck is one of the players. The card-draw based activation and combat system can cause very wide variations and unexpected results in individual combats.
  
• The player experience is best if each player controls 2-3 commands. One command or even two can be frustrating when Lady Luck suddenly throws a bunch of aces in a row; 3-4 commands essentially ensures each player has something to do even when the card draws go haywire.
  
• The best way to mitigate the effects of luck is to have larger, sprawling games with lots of units.

It's easy to learn, plays quickly, and the grid makes it very easy to set up and adjudicate.

It's also very easy to go overboard and create huge armies of hundreds of figures, because they look so nice and this game makes them so easy to play with. It doesn't help at all that Simon Miller is a skilled and prolific painter who takes really nice photos of huge armies that make beautiful looking TTS games. You've been warned.

- Ix

Whiterose, you didn't mention if you are looking for rules for a large scale battle or a smaller skirmish level game.

There are SAGA boards available on the Net for both York and Lancaster.

For larger battles, I like Tactica. Tactica II has just been published. While it doesn't have army lists for WOTR, it wouldn't be hard to come up with some.

Feel free to contact me at burker1 (at) aol (dot) com if you would like copies of the SAGA boards.

Good luck.

Another vote for DBA 3. It works very well for late Medieval.

Joe Collins

Yes, DBA V3 works very well, although I would always tweak it a little if looking to stage historical battles rather than just generic games.

I've always liked Armati for ancients but it didn't work for WoTR. Impetus was great for medieval but I haven't felt much ambience with the WoTR games I've played.

For our Edgcote 1469 show game, I adapted Hail Caesar. You need to keep it really, really, simple, though (I don't think WoTR battles were as complex as classical ancients battles) ..

Phil

Flower of Chivalry is my goto WOTR rules.

I got a bunch of 28 mm WOTR's stuff in you want to pm me! I used Medieval Warfare from Foundry.

WOW, thanks for all the input guys, i think this post shows the difficulties with so many rules out there, thanks again.

Noting the comments above about DBA 2 and 3, what were the changes between the two editions that make 3 better at representing the WoR?

Can i ask a question out of Ignorance, I hope its not too Heretical. Whats the deal with DBA ? I've read a copy of Version 1.0 it seemed very simplistic. I've not played it, even solo but it didnt seem very interesting after a read through, yet its mentioned all the time on TMP. 12 bases per side seems small, maybe thats good as well as bad.The mechanics as I under stood it, are just spears v blades v mounted v skirmish. Whays it so good ? Also, Can you even buy it nowadays ?

Mortem et Glorium has given me some great WoTR games.
It handles the various troop types really well. Free army lists, too!

To David Manley and Happy Hiker…

DBA has been one of the most successful rule sets for Ancient and Medieval gaming.
For 30 odd years it has been the focus of a strong and devoted core of players in individual, club. historical, and tournament play. Now in its 3rd edition it continues as a strong tournament rules set in England, France, Australia, New Zealand, and parts of the US.

It has spawned many similar rule sets… DBR (Renaissance), HF&G (Black Powder Period), DBM/DBMM (Big Battle Rules), HoTT (Fantasy) and a host of knock-offs and competitors.

The core rules are simple, but not simplistic. They support individual, club, historical and tournament play equally well.

To answer David's question… Beside the elimination of "gamey" geometric ploys that occasionally surfaced in the earlier editions, DBA 3 improved the simulation of the later Medieval period. When the written, the set was focused on ancient battles. The Medieval period was added in my opinion as an afterthought.

With version 3 we concentrated more on that period. We modified the relationship between Blades(Heavy Infantry) and Bows to better simulate their battlefield use. We did much more… too long to go into here.

For an example of historical battles with DBA… check out this book…found here…

link

and here…

link

Joe Collins

+1 for the new version of "The Bloody Barons."

To answer some questions in the OP, To the Strongest uses a grid, so you just have to be able to fit a couple of units (one behind the other) into one square: typically from 28mm games they would be 150mm squares, with a unit frontage of 100-120mm. I've played happily on 100mm squares, with units having an 80mm frontage – mostly in 15mm, but I have played 28mm WOTR on this size grid, and it looked OK (and the armies were easier to carry).
DBA has it's elements on a 60mm (28mm figs) or 40mm (15mm figs) frontage, though DBA 3.0 is designed around "Base Widths) so I guess any size wold be possible.

Of course there is always Impetus..

I play using Hail Caesar in 15mm, allows for combining bow and bill into same units. Plays very well in my opinion

Unfortunately I don't have very many WotR minis, but I do have a handful of units on 12.5cm wobbly-edged bases for the 15cm grid. I wish I had more!

link

There will be a new WOTR rules set given away free as a full colour supplement with the August Issue of Wargames Illustrated. Entitled 'Never mind the Bill Hooks' and written by veteran rules writer Andy Callan, it is designed to represent large skirmishes or small battles using about 100 figures per army.

I hope that this is of interest.

Thanks. I have been looking forward to this issue since this WOTR rules set was mentioned months ago in an earlier thread.

Please note that the August edition of "War-games Illustrated" does NOT contain the "Never mind the billhooks" supplement, but a naval rules manual called "Victory at sea".
That'll be the last time i believe the posts here!

My apologies, I should have said that the September issue of Wargames Illustrated, published in August, will contain the rules set. I'm sorry for any confusion caused.