Tango01 | 13 Jul 2020 12:52 p.m. PST |
"I have not enjoyed wargaming naval battles since playing Midway in the early to mid 1970s. I just do not see the point. Every "modern" naval wargame I have observed has seemed more boring than a game of Empire. Over the years I have given much thought to why these games leave me cold. The games are often very attractive, the miniatures are fantastic, and there is an enormous amount of history and tradition attached to all of the world's navies. If anyone has any doubt about the quality of GHQ's micro armor, that doubt is immediately put to rest upon seeing their line of 1/2400 scale WWII and Modern ships. They are a work of art. I even have some very nice old (non-GHQ) WWI naval models (still unpainted Der Kriegspielers ) that I take out sometimes and admire. Here are the reasons why modern (or 20th century) naval wargaming is so dull:…" Main page link Amicalement Armand
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Thresher01 | 13 Jul 2020 1:24 p.m. PST |
Hmmmm, well, first off, "Modern" really isn't WWII naval gaming/battles, except in the very broadest of terms. There have been some "Modern" naval engagements between light forces – mainly missile boats vs. other missile boats or larger craft, but some should count as "pitched battles", while others are really "hunters" vs. hunted, or ambushes – Israelis vs. Arabs and India vs. Pakistan. Hunter(s) vs. hunted in the Falklands too, e.g. sub vs. the Belgrano, and/or escorts vs. a sub. No mention of mixed air attacks vs. naval vessels by the author, which is a shame, and definitely counts in my book as "exciting" – Argentines vs. Royal Navy warships and landing vessels/craft during the Falklands War. Then, of course, there's this incorrect quote – "…there were no pitched naval battles between surface ships in the 20th Century". That is just patently false, but the author seems to restrict himself to a few corner cases, and the Pacific Theater in WWII, along with overlooking some of the early night battles and other engagements between US, Australian and Japanese naval forces. He forgets the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen breakout and battle against mainly surface vessels – counts as both hunters vs. hunted, as well as major surface engagements (pitched battles) to me. Then of course, there are also a number of battles pitting the Italian fleet vs. the British in the Mediterranean as well. |
KSmyth | 13 Jul 2020 2:47 p.m. PST |
Naval battles are boring because the author isn't looking hard enough. There are coastal actions in both world wars if one looks past the large surface actions. As Thresher stated, there are also submarine and real or hypothetical modern surface actions. And then there is the real thing, the historical naval actions to boot. Naval actions are boring because the author doesn't like the genre. That's okay, it isn't for everyone, but it's a little like trying to make baseball better by changing the rules to please those who don't like the game. A waste of time and insulting to those who do. |
Desert Rat | 13 Jul 2020 2:54 p.m. PST |
I would consider the Battle of Dogger Bank a 20th Century pitched battle. I've played this battle and it is exciting. With all historical refights, a good set of victory conditions is necessary as there will never be a Trafalgar-esque win for one side. The whole Leyte Gulf campaign has all of the elements the author thinks is lacking, namely, terrain, manoeuvre, and pitched battles using surface elements. Also I think that naval wargames are the easiest to lend themselves to what-if scenarios. |
Thresher01 | 13 Jul 2020 2:54 p.m. PST |
Yea, missile boat, torpedo boat, and gunboat actions from WWII and later are definitely not boring, and you can add in terrain to some scenarios, if you wish, for close-in, hypothetical, and/or historical engagements. A lot of WWII Coastal Forces battles in the Med. happened within sight of land, and under the guns of the shore batteries. Same goes for some in the English Channel as well. |
Eclectic Wave | 13 Jul 2020 3:42 p.m. PST |
I would say any British vs German battles in the English Channel would fit his needs. Terrain, choppy seas bad weather normal, I've read of some really close infighting going on in that area of battle. I think his problem is that he is looking at the standard Large scale fleet engagements that are very commonly done in navel games. Which he is right, are boring. |
StarCruiser | 13 Jul 2020 4:21 p.m. PST |
I won't even bring up the errors in his article like dates What? Jutland – no one risked ships? I guess the loss of several Battlecruisers, Cruisers, Destroyers and the like didn't count..? |
Frederick | 13 Jul 2020 6:55 p.m. PST |
Interesting thoughts but when we re-did the River Platte it was lots of fun – as the Captain of HMS Ajax I was busy dodging shells from 11 inch guns while trying to get the Spee in the range of my 6 inchers! |
Tgerritsen | 13 Jul 2020 7:11 p.m. PST |
Battle of Yellow River? Battle of Tsushima? Jutland? Falkland Islands? River Platte? Iron Bottom Sound? Java Sea? I find all of these fascinating- far from boring. Of course I find Napoleonics boring, though. To each his own. |
HMS Exeter | 13 Jul 2020 7:30 p.m. PST |
I have always aspired to one day do a real scale fight of the first night of the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. The shooting started when the lead US and Japanese destroyers were 2000 yards apart. That's 5 feet real scale, 60 inches. The models are almost 3 inches long. Both fleets streamed into the other's formations. Japanese battleships were unable to target American cruisers because they were too close for the guns to depress. American torpedoes failed to detonate because they had not travelled the 400 yards necessary for the detonators to arm. American destroyers were so close to the Japanese battleships that they sprayed the upper works with .50cal, 20mm and 40mm fire. The Japanese Admiral's chief of staff was killed by American machine gun fire. The Indianapolis' sister ship stopped a torpedo that blew a large section of plate sideways, creating an artificial rudder. It steamed in a large lazy circle until well into the next day. She fired on Japanese ships as they came within range like shooting from a crazy merry go round. The casualties on the American flagship were so heavy, the senior officer in command at the end was the ship's paymaster. Boring? |
Oberlindes Sol LIC | 13 Jul 2020 8:28 p.m. PST |
As our moms said when we were kids, "only boring people feel bored." |
War Artisan | 14 Jul 2020 7:11 a.m. PST |
no reason to alter course, or even move the figures. Just point at your target and roll the dice. Sounds like he's the victim of bad scenario design. Naval warfare is all about maneuver. Carrier battles are boring. The most tense and exciting actions in all of naval history are carrier battles. If a carrier game is boring, it's because the rules don't portray it well, or (again) the scenario is badly designed. The hunter/raider scenario is the only possible scenario when opposing parties do not have parity . . . Not much of a miniatures game. His lack of imagination is stunning. |
Andrew Walters | 14 Jul 2020 11:19 a.m. PST |
Apparently, someone has played some very uninspired games. |
Tango01 | 14 Jul 2020 11:53 a.m. PST |
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Bozkashi Jones | 15 Jul 2020 4:04 a.m. PST |
Smile, Armand?? You know, for a nice guy you can be a git at times! Right, I'm off to find a biased, ill-informed article telling me why Britain really won the War in the Pacific – that'll really wind people up. :) |
scouts19508a | 17 Jul 2020 12:26 p.m. PST |
North and South Korea have fought several naval skirmishes in the late 1990's to early 2002 with corvettes on down to PGM's/PT's. 1st and 2nd Battles of Yeonpyeong. Lots of what if there. Jim |
ptdockyard | 18 Jul 2020 7:25 a.m. PST |
Certain people find certain things boring. I am one that finds the endless repeating of a few historical actions (Trafalgar,Jutland, River Plate, Denmark Strait) mind numbing but others are fascinated by it. Some find "what if" ships and engagements too extreme and ignoring history while I am one that loves them (having just done an action between a WW2 updated Mackensen and a what if US CB with 8-14" guns). That is why it is a diverse hobby. I hope we will not start echoing the current political climate and start toppling each others monuments. Dave G |
Der Krieg Geist | 31 Jul 2020 4:38 p.m. PST |
Bozkashi Jones, I too, have noticed a tendency toward stirring the pot, from a certain individual or two, of late. I would like to think that it all an attempt to get folks disusing interesting subject and sharing thoughts and other hobby related goodness. I am hoping I am not seeing a creeping in of the "lets you and him fight…..so I may amuse myself at the expense of the discomfort of others" attitude. |
Der Krieg Geist | 31 Jul 2020 4:44 p.m. PST |
As for Navel battles? I have fond memories of playing "Carrier Strike", "Broadside", "Wooden Ships and Iron Men","Sink the Bismark", "Jutland" and "U-Boat" with my older brother and found none of those boring in the slightest. So, not sure where the author is coming from. |