"I'm done here" Topic

Bill,
Can you give me some examples of "non-violent civil disobedience"?

Civil disobedience would most likely involve breaking laws of which the police and politicians are supposed to enforce. Also, breaking laws and committing crimes normally involves violating other people's civil and Constitutional rights of which they have a legal right to defend themselves. This is getting complicated, isn't it? Personally, this sounds like a recipe for disaster. Is that what the BLM leaders really want? I hope not.

I was trained in the military for riot control and have worked as a bouncer at strip clubs in Miami and New Orleans (Bourbon Street, rough neighborhood). For the last 15 years, I have worked closely with SFPD performing crowd control and protecting people that are legally and peacefully demonstrating without violating anyone's civil rights or destroying public or private property while obeying the PD. We have crowds of up to 65,000 people. SFPD walks with us and protects us against people that oppose what we are legally doing, many times using violence. The mayor (Gavin Newsome at the time) has even advocated violence against us.

I've confronted groups like Occupy, CPUSA (Communist Party), Anarchists, and others without needing to use force (I'm unarmed). My main responsibility is to make sure troublemakers do not infiltrate into our group and cause trouble and bad PR. If someone does not agree with our message they can get their own permit from the city for their own demonstration and not use ours. If I told you my most effective way of getting rid of infiltrators you would not believe me.

One group that I provide physical security for is a group of Afro-American leaders that include Althea King (MLK's daughter). They have been physically threatened a number of times by CPUSA, Anarchists, and Occupy. The Oakland PD (including Afro-American officers) stood by and did nothing while these all White groups violated their civil rights, by physically pushed people around. We had a peaceful gathering with all of the legal permits. Anyone care to guess why the PD did nothing?

Bill, if you check a little more into the background of the BLM leaders and what they really stand for and their objectives you'll see that people like von Schwartz are not far from the truth. Saul Alinsky would be proud of them.

However, some of their suggestions like using mental health workers and social workers to respond to certain calls is a great idea, the police should agree. Many shootings of unarmed people are against people with mental problems that physically threatened police who do have the right to defend themselves. They should probably have EMT's riding along too because being arrested is very stressful and can exacerbate existing physical problems. Some cities are already doing this. No one wants to see someone die while interacting with police officers legally carrying out their duties.

Believe it or not but SFPD really has their act together, as long as the politicians let them do their job. At the SF Civic Center, they have two sniper teams on the roof and four tactical teams. We put up vehicle barriers to prevent people from driving into the crowd. I also have a group of plainclothes former LEO's that are licensed and concealed carry that can arrest people and turn them over to the police. They also provide physical security for some of the VIPs. Because we are organized and prepared we've stopped violent groups before they could cause any damage or harm. The most amusing incident is when a number of female protesters stripped to the waist and attempted to get on the stage. Unfortunately, I was too busy to take some video.

When the Occupy groups were closing down City Hall's around the country they melted away when confronted by us on Market Street. I infiltrate friends (former Marine MMA competitors) into the opposition groups to persuade them from doing something really stupid like throwing bricks. So far so good with no one getting physical or injured.

The problem with most of these "protest" groups is that they have an illegal gathering (no permit) and do not control who joins them. BLM does not seem to have a history of violence but violent groups easily infiltrated them giving them a bad reputation. Sooner or later the local PD needs to get involved to enforce the law and bad things happen whether they get involved or not. Especially if the protesters disobey the PD or resist arrest. There are accounts of other people and BLM attempting to stop the violence but they were overwhelmed. They need to make sure the troublemakers do not get in, to begin with, but that's almost impossible to do with an illegal gathering.

A police officer legally carrying out his duties, enforcing the law, and legally defending himself is not normally police brutality but some do get carried away. This is why many charges of brutality are dismissed. If people respected and obeyed the law, respected private property, and civil rights of others there would be fewer problems.

Maybe BLM should try civil obedience rather than disobedience, respect the rights of others and private property, get legal permits to protest, keep out trouble makers, work with the local PD rather than against them, and make sure their message does not get highjacked by violent groups. Even if you don't agree with their message you'd still have to respect their right to demonstrate it. Breaking laws, civil disobedience, violence, and attacking police carrying out their duties is not something I support.

Wolfhag

"Black Lives Matter is an organized movement advocating for non-violent civil disobedience in protest against incidents of police brutality against African-American people."

Bill, did you read their entire mission statement, i.e. to dismantle the existing patriachical system and traditional western nuclear family?

Doesn't sound non-violent to me.

Wolfhag +1 to your last para in particular – all such groups need to make more of an effort to disassociate themselves and their message from those violent extremists that seek to infiltrate and exploit their protests for wholly different aims.

Von Schwartz: while I don't like or trust many of their objectives, why can't such things as you describe be achieved non-violently? They're more about societal attitudes than actions.

But I share the concerns of many that this is not really the right place for such discussions – like your local games club, they rarely turn out well and sew divisions and animosity – which we really don't need

Yep +1 Wolf, von Schwartz & Basha …

Basha, why would you want to dismantle the nuclear family? We're talking about Mom, Dad, and one or more children. I've never agreed with that hack about "It takes a village to raise a child." BS, that's "B" as in "B" and "S" as in "S". It takes a family! Preferably an INTACT family with a mother AND a father.

vonS, to be clear, I'm with you on that as a general rule (though we could discuss whether the extended family with 3 generations living together is actually a better way of bringing up children and providing care for the elderly).

It was the suggestion that such change would be achieved through violent means rather than peaceful protest and shifting societal opinion that I was challenging.

that such change would be achieved through violent means

Did not Marx, Lenin & Mao say as much ? I'm pretty sure they did …

As well as some of the leadership(?) of the protesters and some of the protesters themselves … I think so …

Legion 4; I suspect you're right – what people say and do are often very different, of course.

The BLM movement doesn't want to "dismantle" the nuclear family. What it wants to dismantle or disrupt is the "requirement" that a family unit be only thought of as nuclear (parents + children), thus broadening the concept of the family unit to include extended families (parents, children, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc.), or people who care for and support a child but aren't connected by blood or marriage/partnership (i.e., a "village"):

'We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and "villages" that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.'

Note that even in BLM's formulation the nuclear family (parents and children) is primus inter pares amongst otherwise equally valid family choices. If mom, dad, and the kids aren't comfortable with Grandpa Joe, Aunt Sallie, or nice Mr. Smith next door getting involved in raising the kids, that settles the matter. Extended family/"village" are only involved to the extent the nuclear family is comfortable with it.

"We were the Leopards, the Lions; those who'll take our place will be little jackals, hyenas; and the whole lot of us, Leopards, jackals, and sheep, we'll all go on thinking ourselves the salt of the earth."

Not being tech saavy enough as I remember computers programs that used data punch cards.

I'm not smart enough to post this excellent video my "boss" when I was in the USAR sent me. I was his Grp Intel Officer/S2 in '91.

Being a bit of a history-phile, I found this video pretty accurate from my POV … On a number of levels … and not just historical but very current with all the is going on today. In the streets of the USA. Mob rule is no rule …

I don't know if this will work ? But put this in your search engine[or whatever?] -

VIDEO-2020-07-04-01-12-13.mp4

Well, if anyone was actually taught history today, not the revisionist crap that they try to pass off as history, they might realize that this type of thing has gone on before. It started around 1930 in Germany and Italy. They had people who ran around wearing black clothing, some brown, burning buildings and beating up people. Does any of this sound familiar? At least they were truthful, they referred to themselves as Fascists.

Well again the violent protesters and their leaders, tearing down statues of Lincoln and Grant, really have no understanding of history. Anymore than those that damaged the WWII memorial, graves at Arlington, Purple Heart Memorial, etc., etc. Many were probably the same …

Those that don't understand history are destined to repeat it… I think the saying goes …

If you want to get rid of a statue, use the system we have: democracy!

Getting your way through mob action is dangerous.

Agreed !

That's what we said in 1776 and you didn't listen then 🙂

Yeah … but we still like the Limey's anyway ! 💂‍♂️

use the system we have: democracy!

That's what we said in 1776

Apparently I've been reading the wrong history books.

Well, we Brits thought the existing democratic arrangements for the Americas were perfectly fair and working fine until a noisy minority of colonists started all that "no taxation without representation" malarkey.

Didn't the British tax the colonies to help pay for the 7 Years War which they started with the French or is it more complicated than that?

Wolfhag

Wolfhag – Yes, and yes.

Like most relationships, it's complicated on both sides.

All very true … And as they say "the rest is history" ! 😎

etotheipi,
Yes, I guess it can get really complicated with all of those European incestuous political and military relationships. Much like the global ones today.

Wolfhag

From July 9
Bill,
Can you give me some examples of "non-violent civil disobedience"?

I'm still waiting.

Wolfhag

Wolfhag, what about the ‘Singing Revolutions' in the Baltic States in the late 80's, that contributed to their achieving nominal independence by 1991?

that contributed to their achieving nominal independence by 1991?

I have a number of relatives who were behind the Iron Curtain in the Baltics at that time who would question the work "contributed".

Basha,
I don't know? What about it?

Maybe you can send the lyrics to BLM to sing.

That has nothing to do with BLM activity now and Bill has not used it as an example.

Wolfhag

That's what we said in 1776 and you didn't listen then 🙂

Ouch dude!

Oh, wow, BLM has a song?!?! I love BLM!!

…..Oh, wait…we ARE talking about Bureau of Land Management…right?

BTW, aren't we straying off the track a bit?

vonS: maybe, but possibly not a bad thing. it's a bit like one of those rambling conversations in a bar.

Just don't suggest that we all move on!! 🙂

Can you give me some examples of "non-violent civil disobedience"?

Rosa Parks, Claudette Colvin, Aurelia Browder, Susie McDonald, and Mary Louise Smith breaking Montgomery, Alabama's racial segregation laws in 1955.

The 1960 Sit-ins, starting with Greensboro, North Carolina and spreading throughout the South, in which African-Americans requested service at segregated private and public facilities, and then refused to leave when denied service because of their race, thus breaking laws on racial segregation and trespassing in Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, North Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Virginia.

conversations in a bar.

Are we going to a bar ? Ooh ! Ooh ! Do they have wings & nachos ?!?

"You'll get nothing, and like it."

-Judge Smails, Caddyshack

😥 LOL !!!! 😀😆🤣

Woah, you go to a bar to…eat?

Maybe fortunate we let you go your own way – at most, a proper bar only offers peanuts, crisps and pork scratchings (and maybe a pickled egg for the more adventurous)

We got some pretty good bar chow around these parts ! Including pizza, wings, burgers, etc. !!!!

@Basha Felika
Woah, you go to a bar to…eat?

That what we tell SWMBO, we're actually going to check out the young waitresses in their short costumes.

OH C'MON you were ALL thinking IT!!!!!

Seems we really are two nations divided by more than just a common language 🙂

Young waitresses in short costumes are rarely a thing over here (or I'm just going to the wrong bars!) . Even Hooters has failed to break into the U.K. market, probably for a lack of suitably qualified staff.

Didn't Kipling say that Basha !? 💂‍♂️ Who am I to argue with it ! 😃😎

Young waitresses in short costumes are rarely a thing over here (or I'm just going to the wrong bars!) . Even Hooters has failed to break into the U.K. market, probably for a lack of suitably qualified staff.

Seems we have an abundance of places with "attractive" young waitresses here too. They know how to get a good tip by treating those they serve very well. But now they all wear masks because of COVID.

But still … a nice addition to your dinning pleasure. My one friend who makes too much money and does not generally know how to spend it.🎩 The prettier the waitress, the bigger the tip. Like $20 USD for a $3 USD-$4 Beer !

I'm sure some may say this is all sexists, un-PC, etc. But it is reality … 😉

Legion 4 +1

Can't you educate your friend to spend his money on little toy soldiers instead?

Hmmmm…maybe it's me that needs to review my priorities!

I wish I could educate him in any way. He has the attention span of a puppy ! 🐶

I told him to give me some of his extra $ and I'd invest it for him. Still has not happened. 💰💸

Then it's your responsibility to sit alongside him in the bar, to make sure he spends his money wisely – and he should buy you beer in appreciation of the sacrifices you are making on his behalf

Actually, SWMBO made me go to Hooters several times back in the day. It was the only sports bar like place with lots of big screens an no smoking. Before the ban. (Not the Hooters ban, the roll out of smoking bans.)

Yeah, sure, she "made you do it" for your health 😂

Hmm, $20 USD…for "the tip" you say?

YouTube link

And for those of us of a certain age and nationality…

Hooters has a new menu item, a Vegan dinner.

It consists of beer and french fries.

Wolfhag

I went to a Hooters once.

Just sayin'.

Actually I had my then GF with me and she insisted we leave before we'd even had a chance to look at the menu because she felt uncomfortable in there.

Basha – that was a wall to wall ad for….SPAM!!!!!

Little Spam icons in the corners…Spamicons!!!

Luv it!!!