"Macedon v Thebes & Greek League" Topic

Macedonia v Greek League
War & Conquest – 3200 points
Why 3200 points? No other reason than that is how many Macedonians I have.
Macedonia:
Right flank cavalry
Commanding: Alexander of Macedon
8 Companion cavalry: Armor value (AV) 3, xyston
8 Prodromoi Lancers: AV2, xyston
6 Allied Greek light cavalry: AV1, javelins

Infantry Center – from right to left:
Commanding Craterus (with regulars) & Cleander (with Allied Greek Hoplites)
18 Hypaspists: AV3, thrusting spears
24 Veteran Phalanx: AV2 pike
30 Regular Phalanx: Av1, Pike
30 Allied Greek Hoplites: AV3, thrusting spears
16 Agrianian skirmishers: AV1, javelins
12 Thracian skirmishers: AV1, javelins (AKA Thracian1)
12 Thracian skirmishers: AV1, javelins (AKA Thracian2)
16 Mercenary archers, AV0, bow

Left flank cavalry:
Commanding: Parmenion (with Thessalians)
9 Thessalian heavy cavalry: AV2, thrusting spears
6 Thracian light cavalry: AV2, javelins

Thebes & the Greek League
Commanding: Neveratalos of Thebes
Right flank cavalry (Facing Macedonian left)
10 Theban Heavy cavalry: AV2, Throwing spears
8 Hill tribe light cavalry: AV2, throwing spears & javelins

Infantry Center (Taxiarch in parenthesis) – from right to left
12 Mercenary archers from Crete: AV0
24 Theban veteran hoplites (Euripedes) AV3, thrusting spears
24 Theban regular hoplites (Imenedes) AV3, thrusting spears
24 Greek League hoplites (Comicus, standup philosopher) AV2, thrusting spears
24 Athenian veterans (Politicus, a trouble maker) AV3, thrusting spears
12 Spartan hoplites: AV3, thrusting spears
12 Greek Mercenary archers: AV0
12 Hill Tribes slingers: AV0
12 League Psiloi: AV1, javelins
12 Hill Tribes skirmishers: AV0, javelins
12 Mercenary Peltasts: AV1, javelins
Left flank cavalry:
12 Athenian heavy cavalry: AV2, throwing spears
10 League light cavalry: AV1, javelins

Front note: I had some trouble with this battle, forgetting some rules, bad tactics, etc. This is actually the 4th go around between these two armies. I initially had 3 Macedonian phalanxes of 18 each – but they lacked staying power against the heavily armored Greeks and kept getting stomped, so I went with 2 units (24 & 30) which helped a little.

Turn 1: Greek League has initiative and moves first
Not much happens as both sides advanced on their right and refuse their left.
No Macedonian casualties.
Thracian1 kills 1 figure from Hill Tribes Skirmishers
Macedonian Archers (in a lucky shot) kill 3 Cretan Archers, they initially panic, but rally at end of turn

Turn 2: Macedonian gains initiative thanks to Alexander successfully using one of his 3 SIP (Strategic initiative points). Macedonians get aggressive on their right, but left is refused so much Greeks can't reach it yet.
Macedonian Charges:
Macedonian Allied Greek light cavalry charge Greek League light cavalry. The latter elects to "stand & shoot" which causes one KIA, but they charge home
Alexander & lancers charge Athenian heavy cavalry – they stand
Thrace1 charges Psiloi, they "stand & shoot" causing one KIA
Thrace 2 charges Hill Tribes skirmishers, they "stand & shoot" without effect

Macedonian Shooting phase:
Right: Agrianians throw their javelins at League archers, killing 3, but they stand fast
Left: Mercenary archers shoot at Hillmen light cavalry, causing one kill

Macedonian combat phase:
Allied Greek light cavalry defeat Greek League light cavalry (2 kills:1), they route and are overrun
Alexander & lancers cause a lot of havoc (4 kills:1) but in the first of what will be many examples of Omens favoring the Greeks, they pass morale (Rules notes: if a regular formation is at >=51% , they roll 3 dice and use the lowest two for morale; further, if you outnumber enemy, you will stay if you fail morale by only one. Greeks needed "snake-eyes" – but rolled a 3, which means they stayed anyway).
Thrace1 defeat psiloi – even though neither side killed anyone – but allow them to escape rather than risk dissipating against supporting phalanx to their rear (rules note: if a unit in skirmish formation pursues into a formed unit, they will dissipate and are gone for good).
Thrace2 & Hill Tribe skirmishers get locked in combat, neither side gaining an advantage.
Greek League Peltasts panic at the sight of the routing psiloi.

Greek League Phase:
No charges
Shooting:
League Archers shoot at Agrianians without effect
Slingers manage to kill one Agrianian
Cretan archers fire at Macedonian archers without effect

Combat:
Athenian Heavy cavalry pull off a draw on nullifying Macedonian momentum (Rules note: if you win combat, but opponent passes morale and stays, you get a +1 momentum to combat results. This happens every turn, so your momentum can add up). Primary cause of defeat was lancers going 0/6 (needing a 4+) on their combat roll
Thrace2 & Hill Tribes stay locked in combat

Rally phase:
Psiloi & Peltasts both fail their checks & continue to route;

Turn 3: Greek League initiative (neither side uses a SIP)
League Charges;
Greek League Hoplites charge Thrace1 skirmishers, but they successfully evade
Hill Tribes Light cavalry charge Thracian light cavalry. The latter elects to stand and shoot, hoping to stop charge with javelin fire. The plan works, as they cause 3 KIA stopping Hill Tribes in their tracks.
Theban Heavy cavalry attempt to charge Mercenary archers (a long ways away), the latter elects to "fire & flee" they cause one casualty and successfully evade charge

Greek League shooting:
League archers shoot at Agrianians without effect
Hill Tribes slingers kill two Agrianians
Cretans, in a fine example of their elite shooting abilities fire long range at Thessalian cavalry, causing 4 casualties. Bad omens being what they are, Thessalians fail their morale check and route off the board (one of the dangers of refusing a flank is you don't have room to route and recover). Good bye Parmenion.

Greek League combat;
Athenian Heavy cavalry continue to lock up with Alexander & Prodromoi lancers
(That 0/6 last bound is haunting them)
Hill Tribe skirmishers continue the struggle with Thrace2

Macedonian charges
Agrianians charge League archers, who flee behind protective cover of Spartans
Thracian light cavalry charge Hill Tribes light cavalry, they "stand & shoot" causing one casualty – Both units are getting dangerously reduced (Rules notes: Infantry units reduced below six or cavalry reduced below 4 are removed form game).

Macedonian shooting:
Mercenary archers shoot at Cretan archers without effect

Combat:
Alexander & Prodromoi finally defeat the Athenian Heavy cavalry by reducing them to below minimum. Alexander is able to check pursuit.
Thrace2 does reduces Hill Tribes skirmishers to below minimum, but cannot check their pursuit, and they dissipate on supporting phalanxes.
Thracian Light cavalry defeat Hill Tribes light cavalry, the latter dissipate because of excessive casualties

Morale checks & rally:
Spartans are not bothered all that much by route Athenian cavalry, as they pass their morale check – barely.
Hill Tribe light infantry in reserve are not so stoic, as they fail, barely.
Hill Tribe light infantry, Psiloi & League archers all route off board.
Peltasts find their courage and manage to rally just short of too late.

Turn4: Macedonian Initiative (both sides used a SIP)
Macedonian Charges:
Hypaspists, finally sensing time is right, charge slingers, who run, the Hypaspists continue on and charge the Spartans behind them.
Alexander (who has left lancers and joined Companions) charges Spartan left flank –
Spartan discipline holds, and they are not too bothered by flank attack
Macedonian veteran phalanx advances to just short of Athenian veterans to hold them in place

Macedonian shooting:
Archers turn to face Theban Heavy cavalry and cause 2 casualties, A third falls when he stepped in front of an arrow heading for Strategos Neveratalos.

Combat:
Alexander & Companions plus Hypaspists should be destroying Spartans, but being Spartans – they hold (passed a morale check on a 5/5)

Greek League charges:
With time running out. The Greek Phalanxes charge hoping to close before their left flank collapses.
Athenian veterans charge Macedonian Veterans
League Hoplites charge Macedonian regulars
Two units of Theban Hoplites continue to advance, but because of refused flank, aren't in range yet.

Greek League shooting:
The Cretans continue to prove their worth and take out 2 Macedonian archers

Combat:
Spartans finally succumb to numbers and being flanked, they break & flee
The Companions hold, while the Hypaspists pursue into Athenian flank
Athenian veterans have the advantage on the Macedonian veterans (3 kills:1), but thanks to the nearby steadying presence of Alexander, they pass morale – barely.
The Macedonian regulars get the better of the League Hoplites, but the latter stays

Morale checks:
Slingers rally

Turn5 Greek League initiative (neither side uses SIP)
Greek League Charges
Both Theban phalanxes charge the Macedonian Mercenary hoplites
Neveratalos & Theban heavy cavalry charge. Thracian light cavalry. With no room to maneuver, the Thracians must "stand & shoot," causing one casualty

Greek League shooting:
Cretans continue their excellence and take out 4 mercenary archers – they barely hold

Combats:
Hypaspists & Macedonian vets have the Athenians at a severe disadvantage (5kills:3 + flank attack) but their heavier armor and constant drilling keeps them in the fight (Rules note: if a unit is rated as "drilled" they will stay in the fight even if fail morale by one. Here Athenians rolled a six when they needed a five – so stayed)
League Hoplites got the better of the Macedonian regulars (4 kills to 3), so nullified the Macedonian momentum from last round) – both sides are locked in.
Two Theban phalanxes beat up on Macedonian Greek mercenaries (4 kills:0) – wo decide they have had enough, flee and are overrun.
On the far right. Neveratalos & his heavy cavalry defeat Thracian light cavalry, who are dissipated from excessive casualties.
The early loss of Thessalians has hurt the Macedonians on this flank

Knowing that it will take a long time the Thebans to reform their phalanxes and maneuver to threaten them, the Macedonian regulars are not bothered by flight of the mercenaries on their flank.

Macedonian Charges:
Agrianians do a "glancing attack" to the flank of the League hoplites (Rules note: skirmishers cannot normally attack formed troops, but will contact flank or rear if formed troops are engaged to front – it's kind of a hit and fall back sort of thing; the results do not count towards regular combat resolution). The Agrianians cause 3 casualties and suffer none.
Allied Greek light cavalry chase off the League slingers – they are overrun

Macedonian shooting
Thrace1 throws javelins at Theban phalanx flank – causing 3 casualties
Mercenary archers start a duel with Cretan archers – causing one casualty.

Combat
Athenian veterans stubbornly continue their unequal struggle against Macedonian veterans and Hypaspists (Mac. 5 kills, Athenians 2; passed a morale check of 3)
Macedonian regulars continue to whittle down the League hoplites, but they are inspired by Athenians and are just as stubborn (passed a morale check of 6)

Turn6 – Macedonian initiative (Alexander uses SIP)
Macedonian charges
Allied Greek Light cavalry charge peltasts in front of Greek camp. The peltasts only chance (and odds are with them) is to "fire & flee" – and hope they stop charge. If the formed cavalry contacts them, they will be destroyed. They cause the two casualties they needed two, and the light cavalry are dissipated under a hail of javelins.
Alexander & Companions have had a hard time getting around the Hypaspists in their attempts to get to Athenian rear.

Macedonian shooting
Mercenary archers shoot at Theban heavy cavalry, killing two. Yet again a loyal trooper steps in front of an arrow meant for the general. The cavalry dissipates because of excessive losses.
Thracian skirmishers continue to harass Theban regular phalanx and cause two more casualties.
Agrianians continue their harassing glancing attacks on League hoplites, but this tie results are even: 1 kill each

Combat:
Athenians fight continue their unequal struggle, though kills were equal (3 each) the flank and momentum bonuses are wearing them down – they fight on (passed a morale check of 4). They have now been fighting for three rounds while being flanked.
The Macedonian regulars finally put the hurt on the League hoplites (6kills:1). They dissipate, the momentum of the battle carries the Macedonians away from the Thebans to their rear.

Morale checks:
Both Thebans & Athenians pass their morale checks from destruction of League hoplites

Greek League:
The ponderous Theban Phalanxes have reformed and now are a threat to the rear of the Macedonian regulars

Greek League shooting:
Peltasts kill one Prodromoi lancer
Cretan Archers take out another mercenary archer

Combat
After four rounds of an unequal struggle, the Athenians have finally had enough, they break and are overrun by the Hypaspists. Euripides, the Taxiarch is killed.

The Greek league has collapsed and surrender the field as darkness falls. The Theban phalanxes are largely intact, so retreat to their fortress to await the Macedonian siege.

End Talley:

Macedonia: Survivors/at start
Commanding: Alexander of Macedon
8/8 Companion cavalry – only one battle; flanked Spartans
0/9 Thessalian cavalry – fled off board from bow fire (taking Parmenion with them)
4/8 Prodromoi lancers – defeated Athenian cavalry after tough fight
0/6 Allied Greek cavalry – defeated League light cavalry, dissipated by heavy casualties
0/6 Thracian light cavalry – defeated Hill Tribes, light cavalry, destroyed by Theban cav

15/16 Hypaspists – defeated Spartans & flanked Athenians
12/24 Veteran pike – defeated Athenians in tough fight
23/20 regular pike – defeated League Hoplites in tough fight
0/30 Mercenary hoplites – destroyed by Theban hoplites

15/18 Aggrianians – routed League archers & slingers, attacked League hoplite flank
11/12 Thracian1 – defeated Psiloi, harassed Theban regulars
0/12 Thracian2 – defeated hillmen skirmishers, dissipated on supporting hoplites
9/16 Merc archers – eliminated Theban heavy cavalry by bow fire

Thebes and Greek League:
0/10 Theban Heavy cav = basically defeated by bow fire over time
0/12 Athenian Heavy cav = destroyed by Prodromoi Lancers after tough fight
0/8 Hill Tribe light cavalry = destroyed by Thracian light cavalry
0/10 League light cavalry = destroyed by Greek Allied cavalry

0/12 Spartans = destroyed by Hypaspists & companions to flank
0/24 Athenian veterans = destroyed by Macedonian vets & Hypaspists to flank
0/24 League hoplites = destroyed by Macedonian regulars, helped by Agrianians
19/24 Theban regulars = destroyed mercenary hoplites with help from vets
24/24 Theban veterans = destroyed mercenary hoplites with help from regulars
0/24 Hillmen Light infantry = fled in ignominy when Spartans fled

0/12 psiloi – defeated by Thracian1 – fled field
0/12 Hillmen skirmishers – fought against Thracian2 until overwhelmed
12/12 peltasts – fled early, but took out allied Greek light cav near end
0/12 slingers – fled from Agrianians – never recovered
0/12 League archers – fled from Agrianians – never recovered
8/12 Cretan archers – caused heavy casualties to Thessalian heavy cav & Merc archers

I'll post some pics in a little bit

Some pics of the action can be seen here:
link

Enjoyed your report. It was very entertaining and reminded me of the battle reports of times past. Is AV a moral or quality rating? If so I believe the Cretans deserve a promotion.

AV = armor value
Basically you need to total seven to save,
so if your AV is 1, you need a six, AV2 you need a 5, etc.

Great report! Rules sound interesting -see they are written by Rob Broom. Glad he found a home writing historical rules.
What's the difference between a spear and a xyston? Or is it just a lance with a Greek name?

From a quick reference chart I made:
Cavalry Weapons
Throw spear RR "kills" 1st round
Thrust spear AP1 in (counter) charge
Lance AP2 Charge + RR kills
Xyston/Kontos AP1 Charge + RR kills

"What's the difference between a spear and a xyston? Or is it just a lance with a Greek name?" asks brucka

Good question.

Nice to see a big game with formations in play!

I tried to answer that question a long time ago here:

link

Over the years others have reinforced that POV and others have fallen back on the idea that the xyston is just a cavalry doru (Heckel).

I feel the art evidence and sometimes the written sources don't actually align. There isn't certainty where the word xyston comes from.

We do know that Arrian called it a kontos, which is a two handed pole, but also he describes combats that are single armed style actions. The success of the Macedonian mounted forces generated later regiments of "xystophoroi" cavalry.

I basically see it as a difference between a spear and a lance. Macedonian cavalry loved to hunt boar from horseback with their long lances- as have hunters since those times (see the movie Lives of a Bengal Lancer). Heavier spears don't have the reach.

However the answer is also muddied since few other cavalry of the Rise of Macedonia period used long spears at all- so any length "xyston" over six feet would out reach the Persian javelin/light spears, or Greek cavalry.

Also the combat action of the xyston is often described as breaking in use. It had a sharp butt spike that could be used if flipped over- which is described. Alexander asks his aide to give him his xyston, but his is also shattered. However, regular hoplite spears are also described as being shattered in prolonged combat (such as at Thermopylae). But the xyston seems to be a different lighter spear that is quick to use and has a longer reach on horse back.

That's why the WAB folks decided it should have a strike first capability- which is important in that game. I know it is slightly different in War & Conquest.

So that's enough of that. Still the xyston causes confusion when 'equated' with the kontos, and even the small unit of sarissa bearing cavalry of Alexander's army. The sarissaphoroi often get translated as 'lancers' which completely messes things up since the kontos is closer to a pike in usage.

Sometimes sources make mistakes too- manuscripts get copied wrong. Papyrus was expensive and there was no white out to fix mistakes.

To simplify:
Most of the rare shock cavalry around used light spears or javelins in this period. Most cavalry skirmished more than crunched.

Macedonians started using longer lances before Philip II's time. Thucydides mentioned they would charge home into infantry at times (probably into flanks).

Alexander's heavy cavalry was more numerous than most. He had a unit of pike armed cavalry that was not numerous and mustered out/disappeared in Afghanistan.

After Issus, Darius III upgraded some/all of his heavy cavalry to lances to offset the Macedonian advantage.

The xyston became a ubiquitous cavalry weapon in Successor cavalry units.

When cataphracts became common the kontos became the two handed version of the xyston. Most cavalry used shields by then, which made the xyston difficult, so most cavalry went back to light spears/javelins (except for the heavy cataphracts).

All this makes my head spin too- probably why I have not updated that web page in eons.

Thank you. Actually explains a lot. Doubt though, the Xyston was like the boar spear of 16th Century European early Reiters; xyston seems longer- perhaps Greek boar were harder to reach :-)

Hunting scene Macedonian horsemen and various spears and javelins.