"The Main Stream Media’s take on Military History" Topic

Black slavery is still practiced on a wide scale in North Africa. Anyone outraged about that?

Statue toppling sweepstakes update!
Ulysses S Grant.
Francis Scott Key.
John Greenleaf Whittier.

Still think this is about racial oppression? Think again. Now it's about "white conquest" too.

Coming soon to a neighborhood near you, as soon as they can think of an excuse (and any excuse will do). Nothing is on the level. This is ALL about .

Enjoy!

B

No, living within living memory of the victims of slavery, Jim Crow and the fight for civil rights, which means the past 401 years is still live, experienced and passed down one generation to the next as they too are treated poorly or worse.

It is not just that slavery was wrong or evil, it is the fact that a majority of the population then and a minority of the population now thought/thinks of blacks as sub-humans. Thus the insults, the petty and larger cruelties, the refusal to treat them as equals, the continued attempts to prevent their leveling up to the same social standing and legal treatment as whites. The curse of the black man/woman has always been that standing in group of whites, no one notices the ignorant white, the feeble minded white, etc., but the black stands out just because of his/her skin color (applicable to all minorities in one way or another).

Do not confuse malice acts when simple ignorance would suffice in the protests and destruction of stature/monuments dedicated to the "heroes" of the Confederacy. The vast majority of them were put up long after the war ended, many of them in the civil rights era and strangely some were installed in northern states that had fought to preserve the Union. Why would we believe that such glorification of men by having their statue, bust, painting or name be located in a public place be meant to be anything but political statements by supporters of their war time beliefs? These men broke their oaths, fought to destroy this country, causing the deaths of over a half million Americans, all for a morally repulsive philosophy of human ownership. Really, we need to honor and keep their names on federal bases, public or private buildings/schools, statues in public parks and on streets?

If there are any living Romans offended by the same, let them speak forth. We are Americans, not the moral judges of anything that does not or has not involved us in the past or present. Slavery still exists around the world, that should be of action if we wish to promote a moral level of wishing to end it.

McLaddie, I too belonged to a 501C3 corp, and if I
remember correctly (and actually I just looked at
the paperwork from those years ago) there needed to
be more than one person to form the corporation's
board.

And of course there are the required reports and so
forth which, according to my IRS records, need at
least two signatures. More than just a smidgen of
organization there.

Ed:
Yep, two people in one state does not a national organization make. Shoot, it could be six people involved if they have a board. My board wasn't all that involved.

The right-wing radical group the Boogaloos have shown up at a number of protests in their 'uniform', a Hawaiian shirt and a rifle. Folks have put up more than one website promoting them. Does that make them a national organization with specific goals and officers? Again, the FBI says no.

And I am not surprised that you wouldn't trust the FBI's reports. It's kind of necessary to keep the view that Antifa is a national organization with uniform plans and strategies…as well as 'uniforms' and a logo. [Actually several variations]

When you look at all these radical 'groups', it is important to have some perspective without making them more than they are. What is important is to note what they see as 'the problem' and what they do about it. Track records are important in determining which groups are really the biggest threats to people and our country.

However, the media, and certainly our current politicians, starting at the top, are interested in only propagating fear of 'them' because fear generates great ratings.

Black slavery is still practiced on a wide scale in North Africa. Anyone outraged about that?

Blutarski:

Yep. Many national and international organizations. I can provide some contacts if you are outraged about it.

Statue toppling sweepstakes update!
Ulysses S Grant.
Francis Scott Key.
John Greenleaf Whittier.

I think some folks are just enjoying being outraged and toppling statues.

Still think this is about racial oppression? Think again. Now it's about "white conquest" too.

Coming soon to a neighborhood near you, as soon as they can think of an excuse (and any excuse will do). Nothing is on the level.

Yes, they are knocking at my door now asking for donations to topple the statue to the Donner Party.

Enjoy!

Everyone enjoys a little 'the sky is falling' now and again.

If nothing is on the level, then neither is this.

It is interesting to watch how issues are smeared together until we have Antifa toppling statues of Ulysses S. Grant in an attempt at 'white suppression.'

Thank you, national media.

If we started toppling all the statues of national founders and heros that owned slaves in the past, there would be very few statues before 1865.

The original point was only those leaders, mostly slave-owners, but not all, who fought against the Union during the Civil War.

I agree with Dan Cyr. Might I add that if black people had been integrated into American society we might all be able to laugh at slavery as a quaint and antiquated relic but the fact that slavery was specifically attached to race and then that race was targeted for exclusion as if they were to blame for their own situation makes slavery in the USA somewhat unique.

Roman slavery wasn't tied to race, it wasn't always as severe as US slavery and no one in ancient times thought slavery was wrong. Americans knew slavery was immoral and chose to continue it anyway.

I think it would be closer to our example to use Brazil but Dan Cyr is right, if we want to lay claim to exceptionalism then the buck stops with us.

@McLaddie

The argument on here seems to be the statues teach history but the dummies defacing them dont know the history, thus maybe they weren't really teaching any history in the first place.

This is what happens when you ignore people who think they have nothing to lose and are underrepresented; excesses. Question is, is the other side going to learn their lesson and listen, or does the beat go on?

"no one in ancient times thought slavery was wrong"

Except, perhaps, the slaves themselves?

MiniPigs said:"no one in ancient times thought slavery was wrong"

arthur1815 said: Except, perhaps, the slaves themselves?

Right, but no one cared what they though because they were slaves :P

I think ancient slaves didn't like being slaves but I think that many of the Roman and Greek slaves originally came from cultures that owned slaves themselves. Thus, they didn't see anything wrong with slavery per se so much as they didn't want it done to them.

Also, not being an expert on ancient slavery, it seems like it wasn't always the same thing as 19th century slavery. I think a lot of ancient Roman slaves had rights and could buy their way out and Im not sure that their offspring were born slaves.

I'm also no expert on slavery in ancient times but I don't think it has any claim to the moral high ground. If in doubt a reading of 'The Lives of the Twelve Caesars' by Seutonius (especially the section on Tiberius) should help put things in perspective.
My understanding is that it was excepted in ancient times because it was common practice in most societies and predates written records. Justification for slavery in the 19th century (apart from any economic benefits) was often based on interpretations from the Christian bible where slavery is either condoned or simply excepted as the natural state of some peoples (e.g. Canaanites, sons of Ham). [I'm unsure how other religions treat slavery.]

In Roman law the children born to a slave woman were ipso facto slaves themselves.

Whilst some household slaves may have been treated reasonably by their owners, slaves toiling in the fields, mines and on galleys could be worked to death or cast out with no support when they became 'useless'.

Slavery is a vile institution; IMHO, its no less vile because the slave's skin colour happens to be the same as that of his/her owner.

Mcladdie, regarding the FBI, Boogaloos (never
encountered that term until here on TMP) and Bugaboos -

A very long time ago when I was in the service I had
duty which involved 'helping' the FBI. Basically,
a unit to which I was assigned did sort of 'junior'
ECHELON work.

The FBI is, perhaps, one of the best and most effective
investigative bodies in the world, from the standpoint
of forensics and determining what happened at a crime
scene.

Other than that, it is of course made up of people,
who are subject to the same frailties as everyone.

If you're familiar with the Connolly case or others
like it, then you'll know what I mean.

If not, read up on it. Interesting case(s).

Other than that, it is of course made up of people,
who are subject to the same frailties as everyone.

If you're familiar with the Connolly case or others
like it, then you'll know what I mean.

Ed:
Yes, that was a single case with what, two defendents,brought before the court, not a nation-wide investigation of conditions, none of which was meant to be taken to court.

The FBI is, perhaps, one of the best and most effective investigative bodies in the world,…

An organization doesn't become that effective without having processes for dealing with the fact that agents are human.

If you can't believe or trust FBI conclusions because the agents are human or because of the Connolly case, then you don't believe they can be as effective an investigative body as you say.

Having said that, I am a strong believer in checking any facts presented to me, at least those I deem important. This certainly goes for the FBI.

Well, fortunately the FBI are still looking into white supremacist violence

link

We definitely need a domestic terrorism statute

McLaddie, here is what I posted about the FBI being
*perhaps* one of the best and most effective
investigative bodies:

"The FBI is, perhaps, one of the best and most
effective investigative bodies in the world, from the
standpoint of forensics and determining what happened
at a crime scene."

I have neighbors with cherry trees. They could use
a person with your cherry-picking skills.

I'm sure you understand the difference between a
forensics investigation and other sorts, right ?

The Connolly case was only one. The Bureau and the
DOJ 'took care internally' of the others.

'

…From the standpoint of forensics and determining what happened at a crime scene.

Ed:
But this same effective 'investigative body' can't tell how many people in a group show up at a rally or whether an organization is national or not?

You have the FBI being no more than an effective CSI team. You do know they do far more than that?

You know, like tracking the bad guys, things like that.
If you feel they are incapable of doing that, though it is a major part of their work, then limiting their effectiveness to "forensics and determining what happened at a crime scene" is faint praise indeed. One might even call that cherry-picking.

Bottom line seems to be, Ed, that you don't believe the FBI is capable of determining how much of an organization or threat Antifa is, let alone all the other groups we've mentioned. So when they state, based on their 'investigative work', that Antifa isn't a national organization with any overall structure, you don't think they really know and are blowing smoke.

Doesn't everybody put up statues to guys who tried to over throw their government? As Robespierre said, don't worry I've got it under control.

Cute.

Foreign tourists probably read those statue plaques more than Americans ever did. Maybe we can melt them all down and cast some miniatures out of them.

Obviously, toppling statues just for the halibut is where some rioters/thugs/vandals are at… No sense to it. There are those participating who simply want to increase the chaos. A number of groups such as the Boogaloos see that as their stated objective.

In Madison, statues of Wisconsin's motto "Forward" and of Col. Hans Christian Heg were dragged away from their spots guarding the statehouse. Heg was an anti-slavery activist who fought and died for the Union during the U.S. Civil War. His nearly 100-year-old sculpture was decapitated and thrown into a Madison lake by protesters. 

The original Forward statue was first placed in front of the Wisconsin State Capitol in 1895. Protesters tore down a replica that was commissioned in the 1990s.
Forward is "an allegory of devotion and progress," according to the Wisconsin Historical Society. 

Tuesday night's violence drew the fury of the leader of the state Assembly, who called the protesters who knocked down the statues "thugs."

But of course, we all know this is fake news and nothing is on the level anyway…

McLaddie wrote –
"Obviously, toppling statues just for the halibut is where some rioters/thugs/vandals are at… No sense to it. There are those participating who simply want to increase the chaos. A number of groups such as the Boogaloos see that as their stated objective."

What an awesome display of rationalization.

The George Washington statue in Portland OR was defaced and toppled by Antifa, according to journalist Andy Ngo (the same fellow whose skull was fractured by Antifa a few months ago. Go here – link

The U S Grant statue, well, read the copy for yourself.
link

54th US Colored Infantry memorial in Boston defaced. Culprits couldn't possibly be Antifa or BLM. Go here – link

B

Oh well, if Andy Ngo says they're Antifa, well, then that's good enough for me. Just to be sure, maybe we should

Fortunately, Ngo is the very heart of professionally fabricated journalism…

Blutarski:

I looked at all three videos/articles you linked. There was no mention of Antifa or Andy Ngo.

In fact, the crowds' rationales, if there were any, for defacing and toppling the statues wasn't given in those reports you linked, so it is difficult to assign a particular group to them.

What an awesome display of rationalization.

Well, I was trying to be rational.

McLaddie you are bound and determined to miss the
'forensics' part of my post, aren't you?

The FBI shoeleather investigators used to be people of
'Fidelity, Bravery, Integrity', virtues which the
Bureau cherished at one point.

For 2-4 decades, the Bureau has too often been the
Bureau of Ruby Ridge, Waco and the Richard Jewell case.

In the case of the Atlanta bomb, the FORENSICS lab
provided the key evidence the Bureau needed to ID Eric
Rudolph as the culprit. It only took the shoeleather
agents another 7 years to make the arrest, but they
finally did.

Perhaps some day the adulation for the Bureau will drop
from your eyes and you might see them for what they are,
hard-working (in the main) folks with a leavening of
career climbers hell-bent on doing whatever they think
is necessary for promotion and 'notice'.

It might be helpful for you to go to the Bureau's site
and read the story of their investigation of the McVeigh
bombing, the forensics which took place and the very
swift way the Bureau focused on that crime, to the extent
that McVeigh was executed for the crime only 6 years
after he committed it. That's great work – FORENSICS
AND SHOELEATHER.

And in the interests of not consuming undue amounts of
PRISM resources, I am outta here.

McLaddie wrote -
"I looked at all three videos/articles you linked. There was no mention of Antifa or Andy Ngo."

> I suggest then that you go back and read the link in its entirety. Ngo was there.

McLaddie wroter -
"In fact, the crowds' rationales, if there were any, for defacing and toppling the statues wasn't given in those reports you linked, so it is difficult to assign a particular group to them."

> Actually, yes there have been "rationales" issued by your friends. The Grant statue was toppled because Grant (a) had possessed by inheritance one slave whom he failed to free until the start of the war; (b) he married a woman whose family owned slaves. Off with his head!

> Oh yes, another late breaking news flash! The Lincoln Emancipation statue in DC, paid for by freed slaves and dedicated by none other than Frederick Douglass himself, has been scheduled for destruction because your self-anointed arbiters of public conscience deem the kneeling posture of the freed slave next to an erect Lincoln is demeaning to blacks.

I don't know how old you are, so I don't know whether you were around between 1968 and 1978. I was there on the ground. None of the Weather Underground rioters wore ID badges as they repeatedly marched through Boston trashing everything in sight Neither do the Antifa or BLM rioters of today.

Your argument that the riot and destruction across the nation is being carried out solely by "boogaloo" hooligans is laughable on its face. Don't you at all find it curious who these "boogaloo" individuals seem to follow so closely along behind every Antifa/BLM demonstration? Don't you find it curious that neither Antifa nor BLM has issued any sort of statement criticizing these "hooligans" for the damage, defacement, destruction that attends each and every "peaceful protest"? The memorial plaque to the memory of the 54th US Colored Infantry in Boston (remember the movie "Glory"?) and fifteen other Boston memorials were defaced with BLM and left wing graffiti last Sunday during the "peaceful protest". Oh, Gee. If Antifa and BLM are so focused upon "peaceful protest", why is it that every such event results in mass chaos? Why don't they urge the authorities to get the rioting under control? Don't they consider rioting to be counter to their "peaceful" protest events?

Open your eyes, man. You are living in a bubble of denial.

B

Actually, yes there have been "rationales" issued by your friends.

My friends? Really? Somebody may have issued rationales, but they weren't mentioned in the links you gave.

because your self-anointed arbiters of public conscience

They can't be my arbiters if they are self-anointed. Please don't lump me in with all the nonsense going around simply because I don't agree with your take on all the things happening across our nation.

None of the Weather Underground rioters wore ID badges as they repeatedly marched through Boston trashing everything in sight Neither do the Antifa or BLM rioters of today.

Uh, wasn't your argument that because the Antifa wore 'uniforms', they were a national organization?

Your argument that the riot and destruction across the nation is being carried out solely by "boogaloo" hooligans is laughable on its face.

Well, I am laughing. I never suggested such a thing. I simply pointed out that the Boogaloos had a 'uniform' too, and that the FBI also didn't regard them as an organized, national group.

If we are looking at the reasons that different groups give for their actions, what those actions are, is a better indication of who they are.

For instance, the Boogaloos stated purpose for their actions are to create chaos and bring on a civil war.

White nationalist groups state the same thing, and like the Boogaloos, tote guns and have been involved in several shooting and othe violence.

The Antifa? To fight what they think is fascism. The how and where is the question, but that is true of a number of groups. The Antifa resort to violence. However, so far they haven't started carrying guns as part of that voilence.

But to assume that I agree with them simply because I don't see them as the existential threat you do doesn't mean they are my 'friends' or that I approve of them or their tactics.

There is a lot of fear and 'the sky is falling' is taking place.

Don't you find it curious that neither Antifa nor BLM has issued any sort of statement criticizing these "hooligans" for the damage, defacement, destruction that attends each and every "peaceful protest"?

I would if 1. the Antifa was a non-violent group, and 2. All the BLM statements issued have insisted on Peaceful Protests, and in them do criticize any actions that are not peaceful protests. But no, the BLM has not specifically criticized particular events.

There is a lot of fear. link

Antifa bus' hoaxes are spreading panic through small-town America

Misinformation leads to suspicion and even police action
Mythical buses full of bloodthirsty antifa protestors are causing panic in rural counties throughout the country — even though there's no evidence they exist.

The Associated Press has catalogued at least five separate rural counties where locals have warned of imminent attacks, although none of the rumors have been substantiated. Notably, the rumors are often tailored to a specific local region, a "hyperlocal" approach sometime used to boost the spread of misinformation on social media platforms.

Fake news, manufactured bubbles of fear and of course, 'nothing is on the level.' And so it goes.

Fear what you want, Blutarski. It's a free country. I try for a balanced view from multiple bubbles.

Just don't insist on me either agreeing with you or if I don't, grouping me with 'them', 'my friends' and chosen 'arbiters' and all that they believe That we/them dichotomy is the end of rational discussion.

Perhaps some day the adulation for the Bureau will drop
from your eyes and you might see them for what they are,
hard-working (in the main) folks with a leavening of
career climbers hell-bent on doing whatever they think
is necessary for promotion and 'notice'.

Ed:
Adulation??? Is that what I was doing by taking a federal government agency's conclusions seriously?

So, again, regardless of the FORENSICS lab, for you, the bottom line is that the FBI, for whatever reasons, can not be believed and is incapable of providing accurate or trustworthy information on groups like Antifa and White Nationalists etc.

I Got it. I'm out-of-here too.

LOL, McLaddie.
You've never been in the street with these sorts of craqzy radical people around you in real life, have you? I have. I really hope you never come to find out what these people are really like "up close and personal". It won't be pretty. I promise you.

Meanwhile, keep monitoring the MSM for your "information".

B

Odd, that only in the US does it's police force shoot and kill so many, while the rest of the developed world (i.e., western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, etc.) don't?

You've never been in the street with these sorts of craqzy radical people around you in real life, have you? I have. I really hope you never come to find out what these people are really like "up close and personal". It won't be pretty. I promise you.

B: That is a rather glaringly blind assumption that happens to be waaay wrong. I'll be glad to match Real Life on the Streets with you, if you want. What 'these people' are really like "Close up and personal."

*Have you worked in a prison?
*Have you traveled and stayed in all the locations across the US where 'these people' reside?
*Have you worked with them in their communities?
*Have you been to a ghetto area and worked there?

Of course, who exactly are 'these people'?

How old are you, McLaddie? You don't seem to remember much at all about the late 60s through the early 80s. As I said, I was personally been in the midst of it then; it is the very same game plan.

Here is a homework assignment for you –
Who is Susan Rosenberg?

B

@Blutarski

Just to see if we understand you correctly:

1. Everything you dont like is Stalin-esque communism. For proof, waste our time reading some obscure slobber because it's YOUR obsession?

2. Any time you dont want to consider the true issues, you find some distraction to justify why you are the real victim; and you're not going to stand for it anymore!

3. We dont ever have to correct for previous bad behavior because somewhere else, barbarians are still doing it?

4. Anything you find uncomfortable is either fake news or agenda driven…except of course if it proves your point of view and then suddenly the same news sources are rock solid or suddenly an emotionally disturbed, dishonest loner like Ngo is authority?

Somewhere, inter-war propaganda ministries are taking notes.

How old are you, McLaddie? You don't seem to remember much at all about the late 60s through the early 80s. As I said, I was personally been in the midst of it then; it is the very same game plan.

Blutarski:
You seem intent on telling me who I am. Let's see. First you stated what books from the 1960s and 1970s I hadn't read or were aware.

Then you stated that I hadn't had "up close and personal"
experiences with life on the streets and "these sorts of craqzy radical people."

Now, my memory and age are in question, that and I haven't 'been in the midst of it.'

How about you stop telling me who I am and what my experiences have been.[you are really bad at it] Ask me about my experiences 'in the midst of it' and do a little homework yourself: Answer my three previously stated questions:

I'll be glad to match Real Life on the Streets with you, if you want. What 'these people' are really like "Close up and personal." Here is mine:

*Have you worked in a prison?
*Have you traveled and stayed in all the locations across the US where 'these people' reside?
*Have you worked with them in their communities?
*Have you been to a ghetto area and worked there?

1. What is your experience? And no, I didn't carry a gun. I was a teacher and educator. I met all sorts of crazies.

2. Of course, who exactly are 'these people'?

And 3. "What undeserved privileges and undeserved benefits do 'these people' want?

An actual conversation doesn't include you telling me who I am and what experiences I haven't had with homework to 'educate me.' So far, you don't need me involved at all. You've decided who I am and are talking to that guy.

Hi Minipigs!

It's lovely how you choose to put words into my mouth

Read Gramsci, Derreda, Marcuse, Alinsky, Cloward-Piven.
Read the Mitrokhin archive.
Read Davi Horowitz.

please do share your thoughts about why you believe these individuals are not related to what is unfolding before us.

How about Susan Rosenberg? Has anyone bothered to look into her?

B

McLaddie intoned –
"You seem intent on telling me who I am. Let's see. First you stated what books from the 1960s and 1970s I hadn't read or were aware."

Stop playing the "injured party" game; it does not reflect well upon you.

> I asked how old you are because you appear to display absolutely zero frame of reference regarding what went on in this nation between the late 60's and the early 80's.

> I recommended several works by noteworthy socialist thinkers. Gramsci wrote from prison in the 20's. Horowitz wrote from the 60's through the 90's. Derrida wrote prodigiously from the early 70's through the 90's. You cannot understand the game unless you have read the playbook.

If you harbor any genuine curiosity about what is really going on around you, do explore Susan Rosenberg ….. for a start.

As reticent as you are, you want to know about me? LOL.
> I'm 72.
> I grew up in an apartment in Roxbury MA
> About half the kids I played with in my neighborhood were black.
> Half the kids at my birthday parties were black when I was little.
> I spent five years during high school working summers and weekends in Roxbury on a building maintenance crew with two black men – Bobby Graham, who grew up in Bedford Stuyvesant, taught me to play stickball and once saved my ass from being mugged office and John Carrington from the backwoods of Virginia, who taught me how to curse with great creativity. Julie Lela, a black woman from Brazil, was my back-up mother; she used to make lunch for me whenever I was working in her building.
> I saw black people live on a day in – day out basis in hard welfare conditions after being bussed up from the South.
> I saw black two parent families up from the south ripped apart by rigged AFDC rules that paid out more money if the husband was not living in the same domicile as his wife and children.
> My High School was integrated (except for the fact there were no stupid people attending. Our after school pick-up ball games included whites, blacks, Chinese, Irish Catholics, Italians, Jews, some children of Iron Curtain refugees.
> All but one of the employees in my father's business were black. He helped Bobby Graham get into the Brockton fire department and get his life squared away; he helped John Carrington get into plumbing school where he earned his license.
> My mother, later in life, regularly attended and sang in a black (Honduran) church in Roxbury.

I don't need any lectures about race relations, McLaddie.

B

Stop playing the "injured party" game; it does not reflect well upon you.

You haven't injured me, B. You'd have to be talking to me to do that, and so far, you haven't been.

I don't need any lectures about race relations, McLaddie.

When have I lectured you about race relations???? We never got there. You were were focused 1960s radical literature and I was attempting to clarify what the core focus was for BLM--in their own words. That's it. babe. Not one word about race relations. At best, I was lecturing you about how to have meaningful communication.

I'm 69 and grew up in L.A. with all that implies, living next to Watts. I have been all over the US, from schools in the Bronx and Harlem to Gulfport MS, New Orleans, Compton and Oakland, CA to Dublin, Georgia, spending time in those communities, working with all those folks over a 20 year career.

For instance, in Compton, I worked with the Compton Middle School staff of 250, all black teachers and Administration. I was the only white guy there. They had no grass on their playground because the money had been spent to build 10 foot cinderblock walls around the school to protect the students from gunfire and craqzy people. Compton is next to Huntington Park and Long Beach, both school districts having more than twice the income per student.

I worked with those folks and the students' parents for several months. That's just one location.

So, now that we have established that 'we both know black people', what about my last two questions?

If you harbor any genuine curiosity about what is really going on around you, do explore Susan Rosenberg ….. for a start.

I'm sorry, but Ms. Rosenberg is hardly the beginning point of any genuine curiosity about 'what is really going on around me' or this nation, let alone the race issues today.

At the moment, my curiosity about your thoughts is closer to 'what is going on around me' than anything Rosenberg has done or can do.

Well I see the propaganda apologists are out in force. They pretty much smothered and killed this thread as planned.

Sal Tony:

And what propaganda has killed the thread---as planned?

Meanwhile, let us one and all honor and celebrate the anniversary of this great nation's independence.

B

I've always been a moderate. I think there is little reasoning going on among the partisan beliefs being expressed as conclusions [i.e. propaganda] and kneejerk reactions to trigger words without any effort to establish what is being said.

First, answer my questions:

Who exactly are 'these people'?

And "What undeserved privileges and undeserved benefits do 'these people' want?

I was in L.A. during the Watts riots, the Compton riots, the Civil Rights movement, busing [into my school] when Martin Luther King and a presidential candidate were assasinated, when long hair was the depth of depravity and the War protests were in high swing, students being shot on college campuses by the National Guard. When Viet Nam was seen by any number as a fight between Christians and the godless. Where White Nationalist George Wallace ran for President and the chair throwing fight on his convention floor. It is when Black Muslims roamed grocery store parking lots shaming or intimdating white shoppers into buying their newspaper 'The Prophet Speaks.'

And here we again, with a whole raft of similar events.

Since, the 1960s and 1970s, I've sat across from white nationalists and ex-black panthers, Marxists, SDS and Selma alumni and Neo-nazis discussing education of all things. You can imagine the issues raised during those conversations. One also develops a clear picture of how influential the Rosenbergs and Richard Spencers of the world really are, no matter how much press they get or books they write.

If this country does go to the dogs, it will because everyone is hunting for the devil and disappears down those various rabbit holes.

Me, I have found staying above ground, seeing the entire landscape for what it is, up close and personal, is a far more realistic.

Some of it is the perspective of age. I heard this said about the Civil Rights movement and the march in Washington, sixty years ago:

"These people want undeserved privileges and undeserved benefits."

And so it goes…

Well, McLaddie.
Your view may be panoramically delightful from your above ground vantage, but you do not see what has been going on underneath your intellectual feet.

You interacted with your cast of characters about education matters in a conference room. The SDS people I knew were planning the next "demonstration" (read: orchestrated riot) in my girlfriend's apartment. Your awesome lack of curiosity about the seamy underbelly of and your blithe dismissal of the influence of theory and the connection of unrepentant violent revolutionaries like Susan Rosenberg with current ongoing events is sad testimony to an apparently powerful desire on your part

We are done here.

B

Mr. Blutarski,

You shouldn't be calling people ignorant. If you're frustrated that someone else doesn't share in your obsession and anxiety over , maybe you should work on your powers of explanation.

It occurs to me that you're repackaging a lot of recent and distorted propaganda concerning condemning protestors exercising their First Amendment rights. Those rights go to the very heart of the Constitution Thus, when you hear those notes that reformists are really , you should push against them as

McLaddie has laid out some very interesting points of view and has responded to your anecdotal stories with some of his own

You continually broadcast your beliefs without really explaining them and conveniently justifying them with books about obscure liberals that no one with a life has time to read.

In any case, perhaps you could explain to us how a handful of obviously from the 70s have managed to brainwash us all and overturn all safeguards for the vast majority here?

Or, would it be better if I read the recent book of one of the authors you've suggested, Davi Horowitz;

For proof, I submit this review of the book:

"

link

Well, McLaddie.
Your view may be panoramically delightful from your above ground vantage, but you do not see what has been going on underneath your intellectual feet.

Blutarski:
I feel you are digging up rocks in one spot and claiming the entire earth is the same.

You interacted with your cast of characters about education matters in a conference room.

I wish. That would have been easier.

The SDS people I knew were planning the next "demonstration" (read: orchestrated riot) in my girlfriend's apartment.

And the White Power advocates I knew are planning the next Civil War. What else is new? Have you read The Turner Diaries? It is a 1978 novel by William Luther Pierce depicting just that. OR better yet, The White Nationalist Manifesto by Greg Johnson. They are available on kindle and summer goodreads as is Susan Rosenberg's An American Radical: A Political Prisoner in My Own Country Or doesn't your intellectual curiosity go that far? It is a shame that their books are given such wide promotion as though they rank with all other books.

Our country harbors alots of 'violent radicals' on both the left and the right… always has.

Of course, the media juices it by living off of fear, focusing on just those few that create the most chaos.

Your awesome lack of curiosity about the seamy underbelly of and your blithe dismissal of the influence of theory and the connection of unrepentant violent revolutionaries like Susan Rosenberg with current ongoing events is sad testimony to an apparently powerful desire on your part to remain willfully ignorant.

As you appear to be ignorant of ALL the violent revolutionaries and their current influence, seeing one segment as THE existential threat. Susan Rosenberg's influence is no greater than Richard Spencer's, who is

President and director of the National Policy Institute,
Executive director of Washington Summit Publishers. He
Organized the 2017 Unite the Right neo-Nazi demonstration in Charlottesville which caused one death and multiple injuries.

If you rank Susan Rosenberg and BLM a 10 as a threat to our way of government, where do you place Richard Spencer, UTR and his publication "American Renaissance"? Where is your intellectual curiosity about that movement and its influence?

We face any number of threats from crazy, radical groups at this moment, , but going myopic over just some of the dangerous radicals isn't a real, coherent understanding of 'the seamy underbelly' of our society or its real influence.

Such a balanced view isn't something that the media of any stripe is providing. Balance is bland, balance is far more intellectually demanding, balance can be even scarier than a narrow focus on one group as THE PROBLEM. Such balance isn't being provided by our current government, Balance just isn't as interesting and craziness.

We are done here.

Balance just isn't as interesting as craziness.

Americans knew slavery was immoral and chose to continue it anyway.

I think if you will look at the historical record, the slave owners justified their actions. Of course, they were wrong.

Doesn't everybody put up statues to guys who tried to over throw their government?

Cromwell?

Posts which broke the "no politics" or "no personal attacks" forum rules have been removed or redacted.

I reject the constant attempts to tear us apart. All sides are fed a narrative that they want to embrace. The United States is neither as holy or unholy as the prevailing narratives being forced upon us. It is as good only as we come together to make it.

Reject the hate we're being asked to embrace and instead focus on where we come together as a place we can build from. Stop reveling in the the worst we assume of each other and pushing the gulf between us wider. In the end, the hate we give creates the hate we receive. That is not unique to only one side in these arguments.

Only when we actively choose to reject the attempt to divide us can we build together positively.

was Lee as talented as previously accepted history says he was?

During the Civil War, Lee was not particularly respected. Stonewall Jackson was much more popular.

It was only after the war that Lee's legend began and grew.

Or so I have read.

But Lee was respected by those who mattered – Davis, and his own officers and men. Do you mean perhaps that Lee was not as popular?

Watching ‘Gods and Generals', their portrayal of Lee was of a thoughtful, respected gentleman. Not like Patton has been represented…

That may not have made Lee as popular with the troops at the time. The "blood and guts" speeches and theatrical antics of the latter were far more likely to inspire lower rank line troops and new recruits.

As an outsider with sisters and friends in the USA I'd like say. "What the hell are you all doing to your wonderful country?" Thanks. Been saying that to my news feed for months and needed to get it off my chest.