Bede19002 | 11 Jun 2020 9:32 a.m. PST |
Listening to CNN this morning the anchor was talking about a statue of Robert E. Lee. In addition to arguing that it should come down because of the cause it in her mind stands for, she also wondered why he was honored anyway as he wasn't a very good general. I mean, he lost, right? What better proof than that? So, in this age of reconsidering history I pose the question; was Lee as talented as previously accepted history says he was? |
Prince Rupert of the Rhine | 11 Jun 2020 10:28 a.m. PST |
You could argue generals don't win or lose wars. Resources and the political will to carry on the fight are what wins wars. You can be a great general but if your chosen cause runs out of war material and fresh bodies and your people lose the desire to keep the war going it's all for nothing. Arguably the most successful generals like Alexander, Napoleon or Genghis khan where also political leaders and controlled the resources and political will needed to win a war. In hindsight the South where unlikely to ever win the war as long as the north where prepared to carry on the fight. The resources where to heavily stacked in the North's favour. That doesn't mean Lee was not a good general |
robert piepenbrink | 11 Jun 2020 10:43 a.m. PST |
Bede, you listen to people who think aircraft carriers are battleships? Video and audio media ceased to be worthy of expressing an opinion on military subjects decades ago. Taking the question seriously if not the source, a very high opinion of Lee's ability seems to have been unanimous among his contemporaries on both sides, which is not to say he never made a mistake. I might suggest that he lacked something of the killer instinct of Grant and Stonewall Jackson--but it's not something I'd swear to. No two generals are given identical opportunities. As for being ultimately on the losing side--well, at least half of all generals are. Does your bubblehead apply the same standard to politicians? No statues to anyone who loses an election?--and most certainly don't go to losers for expert commentary? I rather thought not. |
Gunfreak | 11 Jun 2020 10:46 a.m. PST |
It's impossible to know how good Lee was. Up until Gettysburg he was fighting the union C team. Obviously he was above average, he was daring and clearly knew how indecisive and weak his opponents were. But by the time the decent union generals took command in the east. The Army of Northern Virginia was to weak to do anything fancy. Lee's daring was of no use after Gettysburg. The enemy forces too many, his to few. |
Major General Stanley | 11 Jun 2020 10:50 a.m. PST |
he probably came within three cigars of winning the war. |
Ed Mohrmann | 11 Jun 2020 11:06 a.m. PST |
Three cigars AND the message in which they were wrapped… |
Red Jacket | 11 Jun 2020 11:15 a.m. PST |
He was probably not as good as people say, but certainly better than most. It seems that many of the generals, both blue and grey, had one or two good battles in them (if that) and then they fell apart. Lee appears to be one of the few generals who was able to retain the devotion of his troops and the people of the southern states, even after losing battles and ultimately, the war. I agree that the south probably could not have won the war as long as the north was willing to fight (unless there was foreign intervention). I think that the reverence of the people in the south and their ability to build monuments to their "heroes" helped the Nation heal after the war. Even with reconstruction, the southern people could celebrate their lost cause and accept their place in the Union. Now, those monuments are part of a shared past, not endorsements for whatever was happening at the time. Where would Grant or Sherman or Lincoln be without Lee and Jackson and Davis. You really need one to understand the other. Are we to dismantle the southern monuments at Gettysburg and leave people to wonder why there are monuments to union regiments and leaders? |
USAFpilot | 11 Jun 2020 11:36 a.m. PST |
Listening to CNN this morning That's a hard start to get past. Why would you listen to the Clown News Network otherwise known as CNN. |
Pan Marek | 11 Jun 2020 12:44 p.m. PST |
USAF- Because the information they provide is accurate most of the time, they bring on people of different views, and they're not a propaganda machine masquerading as news, like Fox. |
Dynaman8789 | 11 Jun 2020 12:50 p.m. PST |
Whine, whine, whine. All because a private company decided not to show Gone with the Wind. |
oldnorthstate | 11 Jun 2020 1:00 p.m. PST |
Sorry Marek, while Fox certainly has a distinctive point of view CNN and MSNBC for that matter, is infamous for just making things up and promoting hoax's such as Russia collusion and Ukrainian quid pro quo and then refusing to acknowledge when their stories fall apart. Be careful who you trust. |
Dan Cyr | 11 Jun 2020 1:05 p.m. PST |
Odd, the 'surprise' that folks seem to have with the view of "Gone With The Wind" today's culture and society. I was taken by my mother to tour Washington, DC, back in 1963 as a birthday gift, while my father was assigned at the Pentagon. After having visited the Smithsonian and all the monuments, we went to see the movie showing at a massive old theater that could have seated thousands downtown. A long show, but I kept bugging my mother with questions such as "why did the film make black people act like that", "why were southerns the heroes", "why were Union soldiers made out to be evil rapists", etc.? Even young I knew something was wrong. As an adult I've shown the movie (and "Birth of A Nation") to many young people many times and we've discussed the lingering taint that still exists from the ACW. It does not matter if Lee was a 'great' general, he was a slave owner who forsake his commission and oath, to war upon the United States in order to maintain slavery as a political system. Perhaps one can study his war record, battles and campaigns in the same way as several the gifted generals and marshals of the Third Reich, but that would be for military history evaluation only, not as a great man on a horse, especially as one who attempted to destroy this nation by defending slavery. |
Pan Marek | 11 Jun 2020 3:22 p.m. PST |
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Bede19002 | 11 Jun 2020 3:40 p.m. PST |
I listen to CNN to hear the other side, It's difficult. And the comment about losing being proof of his lack of talent was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek |
Bede19002 | 11 Jun 2020 3:46 p.m. PST |
It does not matter if Lee was a 'great' general, he was a slave owner who forsake his commission and oath, to war upon the United States in order to maintain slavery as a political system. I find it odd that the people who lived through the Civil War and defeated the Conferderacy, including Lincoln, had a more magnanimous view of the defeated than people nearly 200 years later. |
McLaddie | 11 Jun 2020 5:17 p.m. PST |
It's impossible to know how good Lee was. Up until Gettysburg he was fighting the union C team. Obviously he was above average, he was daring and clearly knew how indecisive and weak his opponents were. But by the time the decent union generals took command in the east. The Army of Northern Virginia was to weak to do anything fancy. Lee's daring was of no use after Gettysburg. The enemy forces too many, his to few. So Grant was playing against the Rebel C team? B team?
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Johan Huber | 11 Jun 2020 10:49 p.m. PST |
+1 Pan Marek. Some people just have to stay in their bubble, provided by Fix News otherwise known as state run television. |
Johan Huber | 11 Jun 2020 10:54 p.m. PST |
"hoax's such as Russia collusion and Ukrainian quid pro quo" Did you not watch any of the volumes of evidence and witness testimony during the impeachment? Just got back from the moon? Oh that's right you were watching Fix News otherwise known as state run television. |
Johan Huber | 11 Jun 2020 11:08 p.m. PST |
Bobby Lee was one of the greatest Generals in American history. All things being even I would take my chances with him. His biggest fault was taking too many casualties. More than Grant. But that is the price you pay for having R.E.Lee. That is exactly the kind of general the South wanted. For good or bad. I recommend "Lee Considered" by Alan Nolan. He takes a very hard look at Lee and his record. link As for the statues, if you must take them down then put them in a museum were context can be provided. I have only been interested in generals for their military record. Benedict Arnold is an exception because he went about it in a deceptive way. Lee announced his loyalty to Virginia openly. |
Dn Jackson | 12 Jun 2020 12:06 a.m. PST |
"Up until Gettysburg he was fighting the union C team." I would disagree with this statement. While they were not the Union's best generals, they were considered the A team at the time. "His biggest fault was taking too many casualties. More than Grant." He did take a lot of casualties, because he was on offense most of the time. However, he didn't take more than Grant. I don't recommend Nolan's book. Nolan is a lawyer, not a historian and he writes like a lawyer. He had a conclusion in mind when he started his research, 'Lee isn't as good as people think' and set about proving his point. Evidence he found that supported his conclusion he used and ignored any that didn't support his conclusion. Like a lawyer preparing a court case. |
Bede19002 | 12 Jun 2020 5:27 a.m. PST |
+1 Pan Marek.Some people just have to stay in their bubble, provided by Fix News otherwise known as state run television. What a load a rubbish. Fox isn't hostile to the President 100% of the time and so people like you consider them phony. CNN is absolutely 100% of the time biased against the President and you view them as real news. What a joke. |
Murvihill | 12 Jun 2020 6:17 a.m. PST |
when I watched news regularly one of the things I noticed about Fox was that they made an effort to have a liberal on every single panel. I didn't see that on CNN or MSNBC, but I must confess I didn't pay as much attention to them. News was on in the office 24/7 but I changed jobs, thank God. Journalists are taught journalism and not subject matter, so they make a lot of mistakes except in sports where only fans end up as reporters. My big complaint is when they call any vehicle painted earth tones a tank. |
Wackmole9 | 12 Jun 2020 6:34 a.m. PST |
I wonder in 410 AD did the "TMP" for the Roman Empire debated if Goth/Vandal Lives matter as the city burned around them?
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donlowry | 12 Jun 2020 8:44 a.m. PST |
was Lee as talented as previously accepted history says he was? No, but he was still very good. |
McLaddie | 12 Jun 2020 8:57 a.m. PST |
was Lee as talented as previously accepted history says he was? I don't know…how good was he? Is that a 1-10 scale or using a bell curve? |
USAFpilot | 14 Jun 2020 9:54 a.m. PST |
I heard there is a movement to take down the Pyramids because they were built by slaves. |
McLaddie | 14 Jun 2020 7:35 p.m. PST |
I find it odd that the people who lived through the Civil War and defeated the Conferderacy, including Lincoln, had a more magnanimous view of the defeated than people nearly 200 years later. I find it odd that you'd make that comparison. The bars and stars were not allowed to be flown, statues weren't put up honoring Jeff Davis and RE Lee or Union forts named after them by Lincoln or the Federal government…at any time during or after the ACW, as magnanimous as they were. |
138SquadronRAF | 15 Jun 2020 11:18 a.m. PST |
Confederate "Participation Trophies" coming down. US Military forts being renamed. Laughs in Northern Aggression. If you want to know about history read a book. How many statues are there to Heinz Guderian, Sepp Deitrich, Alfred Jodl or Albert Kesselring in Germany? About the last German general to be so rewarded was der groίe Schweiger and he died in 1891. |
Au pas de Charge | 15 Jun 2020 5:52 p.m. PST |
I heard there is a movement to take down the Pyramids because they were built by slaves. It's downright un-American! |
Rudysnelson | 16 Jun 2020 11:32 a.m. PST |
I never watch CNN. I actually would not give credence to any media outlet for facts about military history. |
Blutarski | 16 Jun 2020 11:56 a.m. PST |
This is not about Confederates or slavery. It won't stop with Confederate generals. It won't stop with the defacement of Washington and Jefferson statues because they legally owned slaves 200+ years ago (already done). It won't stop with the defacement of Lincoln statues (already done). This is an organized attempt at erasure of our American history and its replacement with the Howard Zinn socialist version, where everyone is assigned to bear their own arbitrarily crafted guilt trip. Note to our UK friends you are on the list too. Wait until they come for Nelson's Column. Mayor Khan will be nowhere to be found. B |
McLaddie | 16 Jun 2020 3:03 p.m. PST |
This is an organized attempt at erasure of our American history and its replacement with the Howard Zinn socialist version, where everyone is assigned to bear their own arbitrarily crafted guilt trip. Blutarski: You've surprised me with this is wild, radical view of what is going on, seeing the actions and/or beliefs of such marginal 'visions' like that of Howard Zinn, maybe believed by 1% of the population as all of reality. That isn't what is going on for the majority of the protesters or any of the leaders, political or otherwise. |
McLaddie | 16 Jun 2020 3:15 p.m. PST |
It amazes me how bad information gets propogated and believed. Someone, either on this thread or the one about fake history stated that Antifa militias were controlling parts of Seattle. I had to see four different news stations to get this information, a little bit here, a little bit there…and yes from both sides of the 'partisan' news : 1. Antifa has no organization, leaders, regional or national, other than a smattering of groups across the US and a logo. 2. There are no Antifi militias. The 'antifa' name comes from 'anti-fascist' and the generally show up when radical, right-wing demonstrators do, which is what they did/do in Seattle. 3. The FBI Reported all this after the Lafayette Park 'riot' of peaceful protesters, saying that after surveying AND infiltrating the protesters across the nation, that they saw no siginficant Antifi involvement in the on-going protests, but they have shown up when right-wing protesters have. Trump could never legally place Antifa on the 'terrorist organization' because they aren't really an organization and have not tried to 'terrorize' the government… other than a strong desire by some to be 'terrorized' by made-up boogie-men. Yet, all the news agencies in very objective fashion talk about Antifa as though it was an organization because that is how those being reported talk about it. |
Quaama | 16 Jun 2020 4:45 p.m. PST |
In terms of the original post I say: Yes, Lee was "as talented as previously accepted history says he was" and the passage of time should not lessen it. 'Reconsidering history' by looking at things through current thoughts and attitudes should have no bearing on the achievements of someone who was a man of his time, not ours. In terms of where this thread seems to be going I say: I do not believe that there is any organised attempt to erase history [yet] although it seems to be getting there. Nor are such attempts restricted to the U.S.A. – it is happening in the U.K. and elsewhere (including Australia where Captain Cook seems to be the main target at present). |
donlowry | 16 Jun 2020 6:07 p.m. PST |
It doesn't take an organized effort to erase history -- it does take an organized effort to pass it on. |
Au pas de Charge | 17 Jun 2020 5:05 a.m. PST |
This is not about Confederates or slavery. It won't stop with Confederate generals. Oh I know; where will it end? These days it seems like nothing is sacred: link |
Blutarski | 17 Jun 2020 5:24 a.m. PST |
McLaddie wrote "You've surprised me with this is wild, radical view of what is going on, seeing the actions and/or beliefs of such marginal 'visions' like that of Howard Zinn, maybe believed by 1% of the population as all of reality. That isn't what is going on for the majority of the protesters or any of the leaders, political or otherwise." 1 "Wild and radical" ….. what an interesting selection of adjectives. 2 Where were you, say, between 1968 and 1978? 3 Do you rely upon the mainstream broadcast media for your news and analysis? If so, you might consider broadening your search for reliable news. 4 If Antifa has no organization, no leaders and is "just a smattering of local folks, why do they have an official logo? Why does that logo bear such an remarkable resemblance to the Antifaschistes Aktion group of the German communists of the 30s? 5 Why do all Antifa seem to uniformly dress in black and wear masks wherever one comes across them? 6 Why is it that it never seems to be Antifa people who end up in the hospital? I've said it before; I will say it again: nothing is on the level.
In the interest of maintaining civility on the TMP forum. This will e my last post on this subject.
B
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McLaddie | 17 Jun 2020 8:14 a.m. PST |
1 "Wild and radical" ….. what an interesting selection of adjectives. Blutarski: I used the adjectives because you were presenting a marginal set of beliefs as driving facts. 2 Where were you, say, between 1968 and 1978? In college getting a history degree and then teaching. Howard Zinn authored a book I read among many. 3 Do you rely upon the mainstream broadcast media for your news and analysis? If so, you might consider broadening your search for reliable news. A cross-section of all the news outlets is one of my sources. So, your sources are outside the mainstream? far right or left? I review many. 4 If Antifa has no organization, no leaders and is "just a smattering of local folks, why do they have an official logo? Why does that logo bear such an remarkable resemblance to the Antifaschistes Aktion group of the German communists of the 30s? Well, 1. What makes it 'official?' Wide-spread use of the peace symbol during the the war protests or the raised fist for 'Black Lives Matter' doesn't mean they are 'official' or that some organization has adopted them as their official logo. I would think the use of a historical anti-fascist symbol[s] would be a logical decision for anyone seeing themselves as anti-fascist. That decision doesn't establish Antifa as a nation-wide organization. 5 Why do all Antifa seem to uniformly dress in black and wear masks wherever one comes across them? I think the answer to that question doesn't require an established organization. And 'seem to' is the operative word. Do they all wear the same outfits, or just in the pictures you've seen… which show how many? 6 Why is it that it never seems to be Antifa people who end up in the hospital? The word 'seems' is the operative one here too. How many white nationalists end up in the hospital? Black Lives Matter or "I Can't Breathe" protesters? Where do you get your information? It seems from your comments about mainstream media , where you don't get it. I've said it before; I will say it again: nothing is on the level. IF that is true, that nothing is on the level, not only are we all in deep trouble, but it then behoves us to suss out the 'level' through some serious investigation. That requires a wid-ranging view of sources, often going to the primaries…usually what everyone else spends time describing. In the interest of maintaining civility on the TMP forum. This will e my last post on this subject. I understand. When nothing is on the level, civility is very hard to maintain, let alone trust. |
McLaddie | 17 Jun 2020 8:26 a.m. PST |
It doesn't take an organized effort to erase history -- it does take an organized effort to pass it on. Don L. Actually, no one tries to erase history, only re-write it. The past is too central to our lives. So, the crowds at Trump's anguration were larger than Obama's, not that there was no anguration or Obama's crowds didn't exist. The same is true of the Confederacy, what the Constitution says or what Republicans and Democrats stand for and want. Etc. etc. The Soviets didn't erase Stalin, they just change his history--again and again to whatever met the current needs and justifications. |
donlowry | 17 Jun 2020 8:55 a.m. PST |
Well, my real point is, history is not being well taught in U.S. schools. At best (most places) it is presented in a boring format. |
138SquadronRAF | 17 Jun 2020 9:07 a.m. PST |
donlowry, I would agree, listening to "Civil War Talk Radio," I was horrified to learn that Reconstruction is not taught in Southern schools. link |
McLaddie | 17 Jun 2020 10:35 a.m. PST |
Well, my real point is, history is not being well taught in U.S. schools. At best (most places) it is presented in a boring format. Ooh, I'd agree with that. I've seen a lot of history texts from a lot of states [26]. In more than one Southern text book, slaves aren't slaves, but indentured servants… One California history text doesn't mention Thomas Jefferson, but several ladies of the Revolution… |
Cardinal Ximenez | 18 Jun 2020 7:22 p.m. PST |
link When will Yale University have its name changed? I'll wait … |
Cardinal Ximenez | 18 Jun 2020 7:47 p.m. PST |
@Bede19002 " I listen to CNN to hear the other side, It's difficult." Difficult is being kind. link The punchline comes at 5:12 |
Au pas de Charge | 18 Jun 2020 9:13 p.m. PST |
I listen to CNN to hear the other side, It's difficult. Maybe it'd be easier for you to pick up on some of the subtleties if you understood the legal reasons behind why statues are getting taken down. It's because they are on "public" property; which means the public has a right to influence whether they stay or go. By contrast, Yale University is private property. Additionally, Yale is a current brand associated with a liberal education which promotes diversity while Lee is not a brand and I dont think ever promoted diversity. I would like to Point out that West Point (Public) has no Lee effigies. |
Ed Mohrmann | 21 Jun 2020 6:59 a.m. PST |
McLaddie you do know that Antifa has a website ? That suggests, at least to me, some form of organization. Perhaps others perceive it as just folks with an incline towards higher-tech outreach potential. Of course, it is a .org site, so maybe the latter. However, there is also antifaincDOTcom which claims to be a limited liability corporation chartered in Delaware. Corporations, even 501C3's, require somewhat more organization than the average dot org website, right ? |
McLaddie | 21 Jun 2020 12:26 p.m. PST |
McLaddie you do know that Antifa has a website ? So do the Hawaii-shirt wearing, gun toting Boogaloos, but the FBI says neither group has an established organization. I have a website and I'm not organized at all… However, there is also antifaincDOTcom which claims to be a limited liability corporation chartered in Delaware. Corporations, even 501C3's, require somewhat more organization than the average dot org website, right ? Not really. I had a 501C3 and it was just me. Again, anyone and any sized group can put up such a website and claim to be or become a LLC. Again, the organization that has done the research and on-the-ground checking is the FBI, and they say no. Could they be wrong. Yes, but it is far less likely than you and me. |
SeattleGamer | 21 Jun 2020 1:07 p.m. PST |
I am ready for statues of Confederate Generals to come down. I was okay with them before, but I am no longer okay. As a white person, I just accepted that as part of our US History, we had slaves. And these statues are considered offensive. And I now (age 61) finally get it. However, that said, someone above had this to say …
It does not matter if Lee was a 'great' general, he was a slave owner … And I think that is SPOT ON. And what I mean by this is that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were ALSO slave owners. So I am ALSO ready for the Washington monument to be taken down. It is a monument to a founding father who not only believed in slavery, he owned some. Ditto for Jefferson. So I would paraphrase the above and say "It does not matter that Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence, he was a slave owner …" and we should remove everything that honors him, including his monument. Same for George. Needs to come off the dollar bill and the quarter. Monument needs to be taken down. Yes, they were flawed human beings that did some good. But they participated in some bad as well. And it is the bad that counts. If we as a nation are going to really, really try to heal … let's end ALL monuments to slavery. |
Ed Mohrmann | 21 Jun 2020 1:50 p.m. PST |
McLaddie, I too belonged to a 501C3 corp, and if I remember correctly (and actually I just looked at the paperwork from those years ago) there needed to be more than one person to form the corporation's board. And of course there are the required reports and so forth which, according to my IRS records, need at least two signatures. More than just a smidgen of organization there. And, too, the State of Delaware has its own set of requirements for an entity to be organized as a corporation under its laws. Oh, sorry, there's that pesky word 'organized' again. Profuse apologies. And as far as the FBI goes, they have not had much trust since the days of John Connolly and his boss at the FBI field office in Boston and another agent involved in the same sad business who died while awaiting trial. Yes, quite right anyone can claim to be an 'LLC,' but here in our state you need to file with the office of the Secretary of State to become entitled to use that designation since certain tax matters apply. However I suppose such a very minor and almost inconsequential bit of organization doesn't count. I don't of course know about the demesne in which Antifa isn't organized and doesn't operate perhaps the non-organization gets a by due to their charitable practices ? |
arthur1815 | 21 Jun 2020 3:03 p.m. PST |
SeattleGamer, what about all the people who, though they didn't own slaves themselves, vote to secede or fight for the Confederacy, still smoked tobacco grown by slaves, wore clothes made of cotton grown by slaves and ate sugar or drank rum distilled from sugar grown by slaves? And in general, enjoyed a standard of living, the result of an economy partly based on profits generated by slavery? A statue honouring someone for praiseworthy achievements, who also happened to own slaves at a time when it was legal and accepted by many people in Europe and the USA, is not, ipso facto, 'a monument to slavery'. If you follow that logic, then you must argue that virtually all statues of ancient Romans will surely have to be removed, as they practised slavery for far longer than Great Britain or the USA. Or is slavery only an abomination if the slaves were Africans? |