"Roman 4th - early 5th C standards?" Topic
10 Posts
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Midlander65 | 06 Jun 2020 3:14 a.m. PST |
I'm in the process of painting a 15mm Roman army for the late 4th Century and quite confused on what "standards" to use. I originally started this in the 80s then put it aside until recently and there seems to have been a clear shift in the type of standards depicted for wargames figures in this period: from a mix of aquila, for the legions, vexilla for heavy cavalry and draco for auxilliary infantry and catafracts to draco for everybody. What is the current thinking – is there good evidence for a particular scheme. In particular, is it credible that these new pattern legions would have still carried eagles or is that now recognised as a WRG misinterpretation, like leather armour?
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Huscarle | 06 Jun 2020 4:28 a.m. PST |
I had the same problem with my 25/28mm LR (many still in their 80s leather armour). I can recommend the Osprey "Roman Standards & Standard-Bearers 2 (AD192 – 500). The eagle was still in use, as were other animal standards such as the cockerel (such as that for possibly the Galli Victores Auxilia Palatina). The Emperor Julian replaced any Christian symbolism with pagan symbolism, and afterwards they reverted back. So, it looks like a real mix of standards, aquila (& other beasts including dragons), signa, labarum, vexillum, flamoulon, et al. I guess that it's just easy for the manufacturers to issue the draconarius sculpt as standard Incidentally, a very nicely painted group of the 2nd Britannica, especially for 15mm (alas, too small for me) |
GurKhan | 06 Jun 2020 5:52 a.m. PST |
There's a previous discussion at TMP link with links to some articles. |
Legionarius | 06 Jun 2020 7:17 a.m. PST |
No one knows for sure. I would use the draco as a default and any others you wish. After Constantine, you may use the Chi Rho in standards and shields. |
Midlander65 | 06 Jun 2020 9:46 a.m. PST |
Thank you for the very helpful replies. I've just ordered the Osprey book and started to look through the previous discussion. It looks like there is a lot of information there and I can't believe I missed it. My army is very definitely post-Constantine as I took a long time in the 80s hand painting a Labarum (Asgard 15mm figure, now Alternative Armies) and I wouldn't want that to go to waste, whether it is historically accurate or not! Actually this whole army is a balancing act of trying to make good use of figures I bought and, in some cases painted, in my youth v better modern information and expectations of quality. smallitalianwars.blogspot.com |
Yesthatphil | 08 Jun 2020 7:31 a.m. PST |
Good looking army, Midlander ! I am also interested in the answers you are getting: good thread, thanks for asking the questions. Phil |
ronin61 | 24 Aug 2020 4:54 p.m. PST |
Looking good, I am in the process of recycling my Old Glory 15s Late Imperial for Basic Impetus, and I now have the OG15 updated pack of Late Roman Legionaries in chainmail to replace the outdated leather cuirasses. |
Asteroid X | 25 Aug 2020 6:04 p.m. PST |
Yes, they look awesome! Especially going through your blog and seeing how you did the banner. |
Midlander65 | 30 Aug 2020 12:41 p.m. PST |
A bit of an update. Thanks to Huscarle for the recommendation of Osprey's "Roman Standards & Standard-Bearers 2 (AD192 – 500)". To heavily summarise, it argues that the legions continued to have an eagle as the main standard but dracos took over as the "standard" for cohorts and, I guess, detached legionary units as well as for many other situations. I like the idea of a big wargames legion with an eagle and multiple dracos but, with only 23 figures per unit and a distinct shortage of dracos in my lead pile, I've stuck with a single eagle for my last legion: Secundani Italiciani. The Osprey book includes an illustration of a mid 4th C legion aquilifer from one of Julian's legions with a black bear pelt headdress, square base (perch?) for the eagle and gold coloured staff. Interestingly (or surprisingly) he wear leather armour. I based my Aquilifer on that illustration. TMP link
smallitalianwars.blogspot.com |
Huscarle | 21 Dec 2020 2:02 p.m. PST |
Your LR look great, very impressive especially for 15mm. My LR are 25/28mm mainly from the 1980s so lots of leather for my boys too . I just wish that I could find some separate eagle standards, as I have so many draco standards with a few vexilium standards. |
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