"Franco-Prussian War of 1870: Bavarian infantry" Topic

Good morning all,

As everyone knows; in 1870 at the top of the flagstaff of all the flags of the Bavarian infantry (except two) there was the "Sitting Lion of Bavaria".

Do you know if standard bearer figures of Bavarian infantry with this type of flagpole exist for 28 / 30mm figures?

Do you have pictures of standard bearer illustrations of Bavarian infantry stanard bearer in 1870 with this type of flagpole?

Thank you.

…I think you may have to make your own with some green stuff. I'm guessing you need several of these, and I would make a mold out of green stuff, and then you can make as many as you need. I had to do this with French eagles for my French FPW standards.

This is what will end up happening, but alas I don't have any models.

Perry's Miniatures set of plastic British soldiers for the Afghan/Sudan wars contain a flag staff topped by a line. You might try using one of these.

Sculpting that lion might not be too bad! I have found at 28mm you can get away with things not being perfect!

Paskal, how far are you from Ingolstadt, just north of Munich? The Bavarian Army Museum there might be able to help you out. And when I googled "Bavarian Army Museum" one of the images which turned up showed Reichswehr standard-bearers outside the museum with old Bavarian flags--some of which appear to have a "sitting lion" finial.

It's a starting point.

I wonder if they are made in flat 30mm figures. Could be a start.

GdeP

As you said, only the 1st battalion of 5th regiment and the 1st battalion of 13th regiment didn't have the flag pattern introduced in 1841 – the regiments differed with their monogram in the ankles, most of them had "L" for Ludwig, some had "M" for Maximilian.

I prepared some scans from my collection:

1) the pattern of the infantry flags of 1870 (except the two mentioned above, which were from the Napoleonic period!)

2) The sitting lion, introduced in 1841 – a detailed sketch out of the work from Müller/Braun

3) Out of the very valuable sketches from the judge Cantler, who made a lot of Bavarian soldiers covering the period of 1790 to 1873: a standard bearer of the infantry in 1841

4) A Landwehr standard bearer from the 8th Landwehr battalion in 1868

I'll add the Cantler source to my uniform series section on my site at link – but first I'll finish the OOB for the German armies in august 1870 (cf. link

… and as I didn't have the space in the volume about the German armies 1870/71 for the weapons and the flags I'll publish a chapter on my site, too … I'll announce it here on TMP after publication. And for those interested in the period I want to recommend the two books about the armies of 1870/71 :-)

Greetings from Berlin
Markus Stein

Thank you all for your precious help …

Yes I know 1st battalion of 5th regiment and the 1st battalion of 13th regiment didn't have the flag pattern introduced in 1841, but models appear to replace those lost in Russia in 1812 and that they had a spearhead at the top, so there are only three kinds of flags in the Bavarian active infantry?

How long were the flagpoles of all these flags ..?

What was the size of these flags?

And the Bavarian Jägers and the horsemen,how were their standards?

Thank you

Hi Paskal,

the pole with black saffron leather around had a length (without the lion on the top) of 2,04 meters, the lion with base of approximately 0,25 meters. The flags were squares and each side had 1,17 meters.

The 1st/5th regiment had a flag from 1813 and the 1st/13th regiment was from 1803 and had been used until WWI.

Bavarian Jäger didn't have flags – like the Prussian Jäger, too. Only cuirassiers had standards, but only the 1st divisions of the cuirassier regiments took their standard into the 1866 and 1870 campaign. I didn't find the exact size, but they were smaller – they were light blue and had golden embroidery and fringes.

Greetings from Berlin
Markus Stein

Thank you NapStein.

You write "the lion with base of approximately 0.25 meters", you mean 25 cms?

It's a lot ! Do you know where to find a 1/60 or 1/56 scale?

you write "but only the 1st divisions of the cuirassier regiments" I don't understand you mean only the first cuirassier of the Bavarian cuirassier brigade?

The patterns on the flags are of the Bavarian cuirassiers different from those of the Bavarian infantry?

Do you know where to find Bavarian flags for 1870 in 1/60 or 1/56 th?

Thanks again.

Hi Paskal,

first I must confess, that I'm not painting smaller model figures – I prefer the size of 54mm or higher (but as I've not too much time, I stick more to my sites and the writing of articles/books) … so I cannot answer where to get flags for smaller model soldiers.

Coming back to your question I scanned a page out of the major work from Fiebig, named "Unsterbliche Treue", a must have for flags and standards of the German armies:

The six flags/standards are:

1) Flag pattern of 1841 used by most of the Bavarian infantry regiments (keep in mind the possible different monograms in the corners)
2) Flag of 1st/5th regiment until 1872
3) Flag of 1st/13th regiment until WWI
4) "Weckenfahne" of the Bavarian army
5) Standard of the former Garde du Corps (not used during 70/71)
6) Standard pattern of the Cuirassier regiments

And yes, 0,25 meter means 25 centimeter.

Greetings from Berlin
Markus Stein

Each Cuirassier regiment consisted of six squadrons, these were paired into three divisions. Only the standard of the first division was carried in 1870.

Ok thank you, now it's understood, Now I just need to find them at 1/60 or 1/56 th as well as type C67 guns.

Maverick flags have just put an 1870 range up – he can print in any size you like

Dear Markus,
Are you sure the Bavarian Jager battalions did not carry standards? I am keen to know as I have a Bavarian Jager battalion to paint! I ask as though you say the Prussian Jager battalions did not carry standards, they believe they did do so. See the excellent painting of the 9th Jagers advancing in line at Gravelotte. I have cause to remember it as when I found it and saw the standard in the centre of their line I had to do a head swap to convert a Foundry Prussian standard bearer into a Prussian Jager Standard Bearer.

I have tried without success to post a link to the painting – if you find it, the standard is to the right of the officer leading the way. Be sure to find a copy of the painting which is not cropped to omit the Jagers advancing in the distance.

Michael

Hi Michael,

according to Fiebig the Bavarian Jäger definitely didn't have flags during the whole time of their existence, as the Bavarian artillery, the pioneers and the Train. Only infantry and cavalry (in 1870 the cuirassiers) had flags/standards.

And you're right for the Prussian Jäger, that was my fault in the post; as the Prussians had flags, but generally didn't take them into the campaign – due to their tirailleur tactics. There's a A.K.O. of the 19th of May 1862, that forbid to take flags into campaigns for Prussian Jäger, artillery and pioneers.

But I looked for the painting, done by Zimmer – it is shown here:

Indeed, there's a flag – so I would think that it is an error by the painter.

Greetings
Markus Stein

Hi Markus,

Are you sure it is an error? The picture shows not only Jaegers, but also pickelhaube wearing infantry to their left. I cannot seethe detail, but is it possible the colour is theirs?

Hello and thanks to all,

And what did the Bavarian cuirassiers have at the end of the flagpoles of their flags? than

Thanks,

Markus,, I have been a lot of times on your site and I bought the two volumes of Dr. Gerhard Bauer, Markus Stein, Louis Delpérier et Laurent Mirouze …

The Kuirassiers seem to have had a gilded spearhead containing a crowned royal monogram. If you are as taken with the Bavarian Army as I am, Verlag Militaria also produce a glorious book, in cooperation with the Bavarian Army Museum in Ingolstadt, called Bayerische Fahnen by Juergen Kraus. It is produced to the same high standard as the Franco Prussian book, with splendid colour illustrations, and covers
from the sixteen hundreds to the First World War. It is, sadly, only available in German, but I thoroughly recommend it!

@mollinary

yes, this book about the Bavarian flags is another one I need to buy :-) – also usable for my primary period of 1792 to 1815.

Regarding the image I wrote about an error if Zimmer painted Jäger – I didn't check the painting in detail; but you're right with the spike helmets visible. So, just to state it clearly: Jäger weren't allowed to carry their flags into the campaign, all other infantry regiments took theirs with them.

Greetings from Berlin
Markus Stein

Thank you Paskal for your kind words about book and site

I have now managed to see the Zimmer picture in sufficient detail to confirm that the standard bearer with the standard is wearing a pickelhaube, and therefore it belongs to the line infantry to the jägers left, not the jägers themselves.