"WRG Armour and infantry 1975 edition" Topic

Any one have copy of the WRG Armour and infantry 1975 edition? And if so does it differ from the 1973 edition. I know that it has a different cover design.

Thanks

Jim

I didn't think that there was one released in 1975, unless it was a straight reprint? From WRG's website link :

The set of rules for Armour and Infantry 1925-1950 were first published in June 1973 and were intended for use with the 1/300 scale models which were just becoming available. This was followed in June 1988 by the current edition, which has a number of army lists included in it. In producing the "modern" rule sets, the period covered has always been slightly in advance of the publication date. The set for 1950 to 1975 was published in January 1974 while the next edition for Armour and Infantry 1950-1985 appeared in June 1979. Finally the current set for the period 1950-2000 was actually published in January 1993. Like the set for 1925-1950, this also differs from the earlier editions in having a number of army lists included in it. Both sets have now been reprinted in a single volume.

I have two copies. One Armour & Infantry 1950-1975 c 1975. Full colour cover with two man LAW team and a burning T-62(?) in the back ground.

The other is Armour & Infantry 1925-1950 c 1975. It has a Green & white (manilla) cover of an M10 advancing down a road, two guys hitching a ride on the rear while one guy walks behind and near the viewer is a guy toting an M1 with a bazooka slung over his back.

Are any of them what you are looking for?

I thought one was WW@ and the other Modern? I have both but have not looked at them in years.

Hi Stephen
Yes that's the one.
Looks like you have the 1975 version of Armour and infantry 1925 to 1950.
I just wondered if it was different from the 1973 version or just a reprint with a better cover. I can't find any information on it.

Thanks

Jim

Sorry those are the only two I have so I can't compare. If you want it/them let me know.

I would be interested in the World War Two rules .
Thanks

Jim

I would be interested in the World War Two rules .

That is the 1925 to 1950 (1975 ) edition.
Thanks
Jim

Give me a zip code, postal code or whatever (country as well) and I'll see how much to post (thick letter) and we can go from there.

There was an earlier posting on this site about WRG 1973 and 1975 (or was it 1974?) rules. But i can;t seem to find it.

You are correct, the covers are different and there were major changes in the rules. I do not have a 1975 version, but the comments were generally negative. I have no idea why and this could be invalid criticism. The 1973 version played reasonably well, although smoke was always an issue and troops on foot were basically static. This is an issue with any set of rules where the time-scale was so short. The biggest issue was scenarios; you need a good scenario to get a reasonable game.

The rules structure was horrible and it was very difficult to learn. I did some work on trying to restructure the rules so they could be easier to understand, but for copyright reasons I never posted them anywhere.

I was told there is a Battle group WW2 somewhere, battle group was supposed to be the successor to WRG and you can download the moderns set from the BGMR IO:group, but I have never seen the WW2 version for some reason. I may go looking for it.

Hi Stephen

I'm in the U.K.
zip code is SR4 7RJ

Thanks

Jim

Hi Pf model

Are you not thinking about the 1988 version with all the modes etc that's a difficult game to play.

I used the 70's version a lot, but in 6mm the infantry crawled along at something like an inch a move.
The 80's version was a typical hugely overcomplicated 80's rule set which killed the period for me for a long time. I suspect rules like Rapid Fire were initially a reaction against this type of set.

I have never owned a copy of the WRG: Armour & Infantry 1925-1950 2nd Edition, dated january 1975, with the improved cover art work, but it does exist. I am uncertain what the changes were, but my guess it may have been similar to the 1950 to 1985 versions, which was published in 1979 and 1993. I am not familiar with a version from 1988. I will investigate a bit more.
I actually found the later rules easier to play, but I am guessing many old timers did not like the changes, thus the negative comments I have heard. I would like to see a copy myself, but not to use, more for curiosity sake.
But you could be correct, perhaps the discussion was over an even later version i am not familiar with. Thinking about it, the 1975 version could be the 1973 version with the errata added from the free set available on the WRG site, in which cases the changes are minor.

"…the 1988 version with all the modes etc that's a difficult game to play."

Roger that – the new editions of the WW2 and modern rules were, for me, a massive disappointment. Bought, tried, disliked, went back to the previous editions (a bit like AK47!)

Jim

Looks like about $6 USD cdn if I send it as an oversized letter. I hope to put a layer of cardboard in as I found when receiving rules that helps keep them intact. I hope that doesn't make it too thick for letter mail. If this is acceptable email me at the following. Is Paypal OK?

(first name from above all lowercase)(dot)madjanovich(at)yahoo(dot)ca

Hi Stephen

That would be fantastic, how much do you want for the actual rules?

Thanks

Jim

lets talk by email.

4 editions according to this:
link

Well…I think there was only one version of the June 1973 rules. I bought another copy when they were reprinted. This copy says inside 'Reprinted January 1976'. I remember there being one minor change, which was (page 15) to do when the scores to hit were over 6, you had to throw two dice in succession. The first one must score a 4, then you added the score of the second…so a 3 would score 7. The earlier set had you throwing two dice together which of course gave you a better chance of scoring above 6!

I used to compete in the UK National competition scene throughout this period well into the 80's and this set along with Newbury were the only rules used until Firefly was published. I am mystified by the other covers I can only assume they were copies printed overseas.

BF

That is my thinking as well. If you follow the link Marc gave one of the covers is marked with one of the US miniatures companies from back in the day (Hinchcliff?). Maybe different covers for different countries. Maybe all printed in the UK or where sold. Sort of like my copies of Enola games where some (all?) are marked with Navwar's ID as well.

Hi Blank Frank

I think you are right about the reprint . Did you have any mods or clarifications for the rules?
Thanks

Jim

Well…I think there was only one version of the June 1973 rules. I bought another copy when they were reprinted. This copy says inside 'Reprinted January 1976'. I remember there being one minor change, which was (page 15) to do when the scores to hit were over 6, you had to throw two dice in succession. The first one must score a 4, then you added the score of the second…so a 3 would score 7. The earlier set had you throwing two dice together which of course gave you a better chance of scoring above 6!

You must be correct. My copy is an original 1973 version, if your version states reprinted in 1976 then there must have been many reprints. The free pdf copy calls itself Prototype 2nd edition, dated 1975, contains a small number of changes. Three example are:
Page 12: 4th para: Add "or within smoke to end of paragraph.", after "climbing steep hills"
Page 13: first para in table, add "or single rifleman firing" after "anti-tank ditches"
Page 13: last para in table, add "except single riflemen" after "All other weapons firing".
The errata you mention is not in this prototype rules, so there must of been other minor changes in your 1976 version.

For the UK National Wargames convention which ever club was organizing it would produce sheets of amendments and clarifications and these did grow in size. I'm afraid I no longer have any of these. I remember the games being quite unpleasant at times. The supporting army lists and game victory conditions produced further problems. One year (I've mentioned this before) the on table victory conditions were so little two players worked out they could win by just fielding observer elements. When they met in the final they just shook hands and agreed a draw without a dice being rolled. A real kick in the teeth for those who paid money to enter the comp, travel etc. That would be Margate 1981/2?

Playing with friends, I never found the rules to be a problem, as pfmodel and others note infantry were static and smoke a problem.

Incidentally Phil objected to organizers amending his rules, this was particularly so with his ancient rules.

Well if there were issues with the rules he shouldn't complain. It seems the authors who make the most bug ridden or inaccurate rules are the ones who whine the most when changes are made or corrections suggested. IMHO they should be more than happy their rules are being used.

I also ran a number of competitions, mainly using the later modern "WRG Wargames Rules for Armoured Warfare 1950 to 1985 June 1979" rules, but a few using "WRG Wargames Rules for Armoured Warfare 1925 to 1950 June 1973", and I experienced a wide range of unusual situations as well.
The WW2 rules were badly written so we rewrote the rules using case systems and did as much cross referencing as possible. No changes were implemented as players came from all around the country and house rules were not practical. The only exception was smoke, which everyone understood quickly. This resolved most of the rules issues, but we had a mass of scenario issues, which you can't blame the designers of the rules on. WW2 gamers tend to be rather dogmatic so we had some nasty situations.
The initial competitions all used a meeting engagement with a single objective and VP's based on losses. Very quickly every game followed the same formula, both side would come on the table and go hull down. If anyone tried to take an objective, the artillery would fall and they would be eliminated. On the last game turn the jeeps or armoured car would zoom out and take the village. A lot of players used special weapons and forces to do things to provoke the opponents to open fire, which would result in more artillery falling. But this generally had minimal effects.
In the end the solution was the scenario has to be unbalanced, one side with two companies, the other with one, play along the long axis of the playing area and all victory points were based on taking and holding objectives. We needed some simple lines of communication rules to prevent a high speed jeep shooting out to take an objective, but apart from that it worked. But by then most of the players had moved on and we only used these rules in one club competition before everyone got married and could not play as much. It was very sad.

The various editions of WRG's WW2 and Modern rules I have goes something like this:-
WW2
Armour & Infantry 1925 – 1950. June 1973
"Yellow Manilla" cover reprinted 1976 printed in U.K.
"Shiny White cover with green and black picture" is the Heritage Models U. – S. licensed 1976 edition.
These are effectively the same rules with a few changes formatting as far as I can tell.
1925-1950 Wargames Rules For All Arms Land Warfare From Platoon to Battalion Level June 1988
"Yellow Manilla" cover with black print of advancing British soldiers.
This is the most recent set which is still current.

MODERN
Armour & Infantry 1950 – 1975. June 1977
"Shiny white cover with full colour picture of Anti Tank crew and flaming tank"
inside it has a WRG 1975 copyright but is published by Heritage Models U.S. in 1977.

Wargames Rules For Armoured Warfare At Company And Battalion Battle Group Level 1950 to 1985. June 1979
"Shiny green cover with silhouette of advancing WarPac soldiers and tank" published in the U.K.
these had quite a few changes including having to roll for spotting targets and Armour Class changing from descending Alphabetical to ascending Roman Numerals

1950 – 2000 Wargames Rules For All Arms Land Warfare From Platoon to Battalion Level. January 1993
"Blue Manilla" with black print of T55 tank.
These contained even more changes and are still the current modern set
Note: Where as the earlier WW2 and Modern sets were not really compatible, the 1988 WW2 and 1993 Modern are and can still be ordered through WRG as a combined set in a single cover apparently

I will add to your MODERN listing my copy of War Games Rules Armour & Infantry 1950-1975 January 1975. Light tan cover with a drawing of two soldiers using cover to fire a man pack AT weapon, one firing and one loading. This may be your 77 reprint, no flaming tank though :)

Thanks Marc33594. Seems like you have the original U.K. edition. Does yours have the two page amendments and rules extensions dated Sept. 76?

Some of the amendments are written in this prototype set of rules: Wargames rules
However i clearly do not have the full set of amendments as my copy is dated 1973. Does anyone have a copy of the 1976 amendments i could get a copy of?

The fill list of errata i possess can be found posted in the BGMR IO:group site, in the other rules folder. I know there is at least one more piece of errata based on this thread. Any others would be appreciated.

Alas, no. Only inserts are two copies of the Quick Reference Sheet.

Will have to check out pfmodels errata I guess.

I do have the blue cover 1950-2000 version you mention so perhaps OBE?

Just to be complete add to the Modern list
War game rules 1950 – 1975 January 1974 Light Green cover with armour symbol (a square with an oval inside) within this shape were small drawings of AFVs

This post stuck in my mind so I created a video on the old WRG Armour and Infantry 1973 edition, which I found rather enlightening and brought back lots of memories of my youth.