"Scottish flag 13/14th century" Topic

Can anyone tell me if there was a national flag of Scotland before the blue white saltire of St. Andrew's Cross ( which seems to have come from Queen Margaret, James II wife so after 1450)
Not the lion rampant of the Stewart's, but an actual national flag ?
I was all set to paint some hyw Scottish with the blue,white cross but it seems that's probably not correct prior to mid 1400's

The blue and white cross was codified in 1540. The oldest scots flag existent is a white cross on red. 1503. The legend goes back to 843 about the cross on a blue sky. I would go with the blue if for no other reason that everyone will easily know they are Scots.

I suspect that national flags were not really a thing for the hundred year war period scots. Feudal coat of arms banners of the commanders were probably more likely.

The Lion Rampant standard was actually first credited to William the Lion (named for that reason) who reigned as King of Scots from 1165 to 1214

Prior to that date they used a black boar on a silver backgroround (Argent, a boar sable).

The white saltire itself, though not on a flag and not on a blue ground, was prescribed by the Scottish Parliament as a field sign at least as early as l385: "Item, que tout homme, Francois et Escot, ait un signe devant et derrere cest assavoir une croiz blanche Saint Andrieu et se son jacque soit blanc ou sa cote blanche il portera la dicte croiz blanche en une piece de drap noir ronde ou quarree." (rps.ac.uk/mss/1385/6/4)

"Item, that every man, French or Scots, should have a sign before and behind, namely a white cross of St. Andrew; and if his jack is white or his coat is white he should wear the said white cross on a round or square piece of black cloth."

This does suggest the possibility that the saltire _might_ have been used on flags in the 14th century, since after all the corresponding English and French cross field-signs were; but it's not hard evidence.

ok thanks. Good enough for me, any excuse to paint them the way I wanted to.

From Alexander II and Alexander III, but possibly adopted by Henry the Lion in the 12th century.
Kings Standard and arms
Or a lion rampant Gules armed and langued Azure within a double tressure flory-counter-flory of the second

Field Badge and banners "or a saltire gueules"
This seemed to remain until 1385 when the "azure a saltire argent" was adopted as a standard and field sign badge.

If you need references I have a few, my Scottish armies normally carry the field sign badge, on the tunics and the standard of the banneret

In the later period the st Andrew saltire was still red in the early Hundred Years' War according to descriptions of captured standards.

My two cents
Cheers
Matt

Re an enquiry I made, some months ago, if Sir James Douglas and company travelled to Spain, taking the field as the recently deceased Robert II's proxy on 'pilgrimage against God's foes,' would they be justified in marching or fighting under the Royal standard?

Would their Spanish hosts have respected this?

I always thought that for the royal standard to be present the king had to be there. Not sure if I am right though.

Well, yes, I think tht might be the case, but the Scots company had, allegedly, been instructed to behave as if the late King himself was present in person, as represented by his embalmed heart sealed in a silver casket borne by Douglas, their leader, on a chain around his neck. (Not as uncommon a state of affairs as one might think. Edward I had requested something similar).

Would that have justified marching under the Lion Rampant?